DIY or Boatyard ?

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I am saving my money for an aluminum spar extruder...

Dammit! i just last week sold mine to help with the purchase of a smelter....oh well...

[Chief Engineer]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse74

From what I understand installing gender is done in Thailand.

Woudn't want that done Down Under

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by minaret

I'm finding the numbers in this poll implausible. Perhaps it's due to the way it's worded. While I certainly do everything on my boat including maintenance and sail repair (which aint much in the grand scheme of a refit), I certainly don't do EVERYTHING on my boat. I don't think people should be selecting the first choice unless they do absolutely everything. The only people out there who really do much of that are Wharram builders and the Pardeys ilk, ie very low tech and simple, for obvious reasons. I seriously doubt 50% of the populace here does absolutely everything on their boat without EVER hiring out any work whatsoever. How many people own a marine railway or travelift? Or a crane for pulling the mast? That only leaves those who only careen ever. That's low budget Wharram type cruisers and just about no one else. I would think everyone in this group would tend to have smaller boats as well.

The only real money I spend on my boat is for the storage, parts and materials and maybe some fuel if I take it out. Sailmaking and canvas I consider parts.

So it comes down to definition when someone states amount of work.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Dammit! i just last week sold mine to help with the purchase of a smelter....oh well...

If'n ya don't have both you definitely are not a diy'er and self sufficient sailor.

I am planning to make spars as a cruising job to help top up the kitty. Just gotta figure out how to get the smelter on board... And the 50,000 kva generator...

[kaimusailing]

There are a couple of ancient boating threads that go back a long way. One is skin on frame kayaks. Maybe going back 30,000 years, the other is polynesian sailing craft going back several thousand years. They were made by hand with hand tools and had value, wonder how much one would be worth today. When we make a dinghy, we are involved in the same sort of satisfying work. It is craft and it is art. When we build a larger boat it is craft and it is art. Today there are carbon fiber ovens, laminating tables, but there are still wooden boats built traditionally. There are a lot of occupations today that don't give much of the hands on feel of working wood or making sails. I'm sure the modern sparmaker has some of the same satisfaction that an old time sparmaker had, one is popping a black spar out of a carbon oven, one is varnishing a long spruce creation. It is all a creative process and produces something that wasn't there before, it is a new thing made for a boat.

This may not apply to the work involved in clearing out a clogged head, or grinding the bottom for antifouling paint, but I think all the work and effort building and maintaining boats is creative and rewarding, and then you can go out sailing.

[ShipShape]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

WOW When did we become so PC? I always thought the word was stinkboater.

That is soooo last century - now the PC term is Earth Warmers.

[ShipShape]

Having your boat hauled or the mast pulled/stepped isn't having someone else do work on your boat - those are not things that have to be "fixed" afterwards, such as a poorly installed electrical system or paint job that fails due to inadequate surface preparation. Also I would not consider hiring out rebuilding an engine as a dis-qualifier for checking the first option since that is such a rare occurrence, and certainly not a maintenance item. However, servicing fuel injectors is a common maintenance item since it needs to be done on a regular basis and is easy to do if you own the equipment.

I always encourage people to do all their own boat work. Generally excuses start with "I don't know how", which is easy to fix with a few books and classes (and this Forum is priceless :). Then their next excuse is that they don't have the time. How many hours do you have to work to pay a yard guy $70 per hour to do the work??

When I was abducted by my boat I spent a third of my first two years living aboard on the hard at several yards. Way too many times I saw the well-dressed, knowledgeable manager talk to the owners about the work that needed to be done, and when the owners left a "kid" would come do the work on the boat. Even the guys who had been around a while did stupid sloppy things. When I was surveying I got to see some remarkably appalling stuff!

For cruisers, the importance of intimately knowing your vessel and being able to fix anything while underway (sans luxury items like air conditioning) cannot be overstated, and the percentage of people who checked the first choice does not surprise me. My policy is that I refuse to have anything that I can't fix myself or easily do without - this causes some problems such as my heaviest anchor is 70 lbs which is not enough for hurricane season, but that's all I can pull up with chain should the windlass crap out or my engine won't start to run the thing. Simple is beautiful, and I wonder how many people who checked the first two choices have simple boats?

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by ShipShape

That is soooo last century - now the PC term is Earth Warmers.

Is that the 'warm and fuzzy feeling' creeping over me? Love it!

[justwaiting]

it may be usefull to relook at the OP

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I was just at the New England Boat Show and was impressed with how many full service marinas and boat yards there are in the area. It got me thinking, are there people out there that rely solely on boatyards to do all of their maintenance/work for them?

Originally Posted by unbusted67

So I am going to take a poll to see how many people do all of the work on their boats and how many people have someone else handle it for them.

Just to start, I should say that I do all of the work on my boat with the exception of stepping the mast and launching the boat (except for when I worked at my family's boat yard and I would do that myself to). I would obviously defer any monster engine problems to a qualified mechanic but I try to do all of my engine work myself as well. This will include a full rebuild should the opportunity arise. I have tried sewing but really, really suck at it so I tend to defer any sail maintenance to the pros.

To my way of thinking there are two very different situations one being maintenance and the other repairs (which in my case is normally the price for deferring maintenance ). Most of us carry some tools, material and spares; others are just very optimistic. The answer as to how much of a DIY er anyone is would be the extent of what they carry plus their willingness to use the said items. For most the situation of being out at sea necessitates that we take courage and tools in hand. Of course what we carry is limited by storage and the financial position we are in or were in.

The OP was a result of looking at boat yards and marinas which is where most of us would be involved in major work (refits etc) or bottom maintenance haul outs. In that situation there are major fixed costs that have to be factored in so some times it makes more sense to pay others to do the work that we are more than capable of doing our selves. So while i like to muck around with my own boat some times being pragmatic is smarter.

DIY when setting up a boat and DIY when cruising can and often is very different.
So ever boat/owner is different, ever situation is different, experiences will differ and compromises will be required. But hey it boats that we are talking about

[Dantodd]

Originally Posted by ShipShape

Then their next excuse is that they don't have the time. How many hours do you have to work to pay a yard guy $70 per hour to do the work??

Just had mine hauled today, yard work is $85/hr here. When I was working I made considerably more than that and worked 60 plus hours a week. For someone with those hours having someone else maintain your boat is necessary to actually get to sail her.

All of life is a trade off. For those of us with more time than money or who simply love working on boats then it doesn't make much sense to pay someone to do a job we are able to. For folks with more money than time, every job you pay someone to do gives you more time to sail.

And remember, the things we DO pay folks to do would be even more expensive if it weren't for boaters who don't do their own work subsidizing our yard bills.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Just to clarify, I have no problem with people paying for work to get done on their boats.

Glad to hear it.

Let's not confuse self-sufficiency with doing all your own work. I'm certainly capable of repairing a sail while underway, and have the necessary equipment and materials aboard, as well as the necessary experience. But I'm less likely ever to need to repair my own sails because I take them yearly to a sail loft to be cleaned, restitched, repaired or recut as needed. My sailmaker has been in the business for three decades, and has the support of a full loft to back him up. He's got sewing machines recessed into the floor of his loft so that he can spread a sail out completely while running a stitch. It's ludicrous to think that the average CF member can come anywhere near doing the type of work that he routinely does for me.

Were I to take a day off work to restitch a sail, and it would probably take me at least an entire day even to replace a UV cover in my saloon, it would cost me far more than what I pay my sailmaker to do the work.

Take another look at how the questions are phrased. They lead the respondent to feel that certain responses are less commendable than others. There's got to be a whole boating industry out there laughing at this point. Out of the first 42 answers, none have answered that they "leave the tuff stuff to the pros." Really?

I once had a slip neighbor who probably spent 80 hours working on his boat for ever hour he went sailing. His hobby was working on sailboats, and it fulfilled him and made him happy. Good for him--he had a lovely boat. My hobby is sailing. This is not because I'm afraid to get my hands dirty, as the lowest response implies, or that I'm afraid I'll muck a project up. I'm just happier when my sails are up than when I'm on my knees sanding.

One final thought: incompetent workers never get a chance to work on my boat. My sailmaker, my diesel mechanic, my rigger, my canvas maker, and the fellows who work in the yard where I haul out regularly are all top professionals. If mistakes are made or if the work is not up to my standards, they make it right. I'm astounded at the number of respondents to this thread who claim to do their own work because the waterfront community will do the job wrong. Competent workers are out there in the marine industry. I'd much rather pay an extra ten bucks an hour and get the job done right in the first place. Always dealing with the lowest bidder is a recipe for disaster.

[bobconnie]

Even tho I do my own work, I like the fact others want work done on there boats ! as thats what keeps us going a little more in style ! The work I pick up even down the bayou where Im ashore right now, would more then pay for any slip rent I would have to pay even in Fla. LOL really I understand folks who make more money per hour then shop rate, paying to have most anything done as it gives them a good vessel and way more sailing time !! and I can use the money to do more cruiseing for a longer time !! I think thats a great trade off ! Just sayin Bob and Connie

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Bash

One final thought: incompetent workers never get a chance to work on my boat. My sailmaker, my diesel mechanic, my rigger, my canvas maker, and the fellows who work in the yard where I haul out regularly are all top professionals. If mistakes are made or if the work is not up to my standards, they make it right. I'm astounded at the number of respondents to this thread who claim to do their own work because the waterfront community will do the job wrong. Competent workers are out there in the marine industry. I'd much rather pay an extra ten bucks an hour and get the job done right in the first place. Always dealing with the lowest bidder is a recipe for disaster.

I agree with almost everything you say, as usual. I am not obsessing over the poll questions as the bias is obvious and I chalked it up to a bit of humor as well.

However, at present you are in a "stable" relationship with your maintainers. Once on the move finding competent folks is a challenge. Often an owner will use one yard once and move on or if staying put it can take months or years to find competent folk. Same for doctors, dentitsts and barbers.

At those times close supervision or DIY becomes much more of an option. Especially when not working.

I can hire 5 Singapore boat yard guys based on my hourly pay. But my income is not hourly, it is fixed. What is also fixed is time. The 4 days needed to anti-foul my boat is better spent sailing my boat. I could hand stitch my bimini and dodger (once every 5 years) and that would also take me 2-3 days. It makes no sense to buy a sewing machine either as the roi is too long. $80 bucks for that makes sense.

To each his own. Self sufficiency is a good thing. Shopping out jobs is not a bad thing.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by Bash

He's got sewing machines recessed into the floor of his loft so that he can spread a sail out completely while running a stitch. It's ludicrous to think that the average CF member can come anywhere near doing the type of work that he routinely does for me.

Really? Generations of sailors made and mended their own sails before Doyle or anyone decided to put a sewing machine in the floor. Many people in the third world still do. I will agree that for the most part European explorers, whalers, and fishermen traditionally have had their sails made in a loft but also mended them themselves, so ludicrous? No.

Originally Posted by Bash

Take another look at how the questions are phrased. They lead the respondent to feel that certain responses are less commendable than others. There's got to be a whole boating industry out there laughing at this point.

No I think you are the only one bent out of shape about this. As I mentioned before it's just a light hearted question, one of about a million posted on Cruisers Forum

Originally Posted by Bash

One final thought: incompetent workers never get a chance to work on my boat. My sailmaker, my diesel mechanic, my rigger, my canvas maker, and the fellows who work in the yard where I haul out regularly are all top professionals. If mistakes are made or if the work is not up to my standards, they make it right. I'm astounded at the number of respondents to this thread who claim to do their own work because the waterfront community will do the job wrong. Competent workers are out there in the marine industry. I'd much rather pay an extra ten bucks an hour and get the job done right in the first place. Always dealing with the lowest bidder is a recipe for disaster.

This kind of blows my mind too. There are so many good people out there who work on boats. One of the major arguments against taking on your own projects is that it is likely to be your first time doing the project. I don't know about you but I have rarely been good at something the first time I have done it. To think you will be is just foolish. There is such an extreme range of products: paints, sealants, epoxies, vinylesters, the list goes on, and everyone of them has different properties that are hard to master. People that are in the marine field use this stuff day in and day out. Even someone who is having a bad day at work is probably going to to do it better than you or me on our first day. It's just the facts of life man.

[Jim Cate]

Lots of interesting ideas expressed here.

Now, with no disrespect intended, the poll questions are badly worded. Bash is right in saying that they are loaded with innuendo, but I think that most of us got the general ideas that were (I think) intended. And I don't think that the issue of whether you built your own boat from scratch is germane. To me, it was fairly clear that the issue being discussed was the things that come along in the life of a boat, both routine and extraordinary, and how one deals with them. DIY or hiring help... pretty simple question IMO. The specific examples posted -- engine maintenance and sail repair -- established the playing field pretty well, and I suspect that most of us were able to give a reasonable response that actually reflects our own practices.

A final word on the risks of hiring help. For Bash, luxuriating in the SF Bay area, where there are indeed many really good pros to be hired, then saying that one can always get competent help is reasonable. But Bash, we have found that in LOTS of other venues help available ranges from ok downward through awful to downright criminal or, more frequently, non-existent. This unfortunate situation isn't confined to the third world ports that we have visited, but has been encountered in various yachting Meccas (even here in Oz BTW). So, for folks less fortunate than he, life isn't as simple, where throwing money at a problem doesn't always work so well.

cheers,

Jim