Cert of Documetation - survivorship

[Dsanduril]

I think within this forum/topic people assume SSR is understood.

SSR = Small Ships Register, a method of registering recreational vessels < 24m in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-boat/the-uk-ship-register

[StoneCrab]

I called the Coast Guard about a similar issue two years ago. When I purchased a car, I was able to add a Transfer on Death clause to the title. The Bureau of Motor Vehicles had a provision for that. I liked the simplicity so I called the Documentation center to ask if a similar process was in place for a Documented boat. They said "no". Further inquiry as to how the death of the owner is handled by them, they told me that the ownership is considered to be whatever is listed on the Documentation. So if you want the ownership to pass to your kids, they must be listed on the Documentation before you die.

Alternatively, I suppose you could form a trust or LLC and have that entity own the boat. Ownership would then pass per the terms of the entity.

You don't mention whether your friend's girlfriend has family and whether he is on good terms with them. If you ask nicely, they may be willing to sign an affidavit releasing any claim on the boat. Pass that along to the USCG along with a death certificate and the proper forms for a reregistration.

It is hard to gage the value of this boat since there is a gap between "My friend has a pretty valuable sailboat" and he can't afford a lawyer.... and didn't renew his documentation. Maybe the value is in his use of it as a home, but it is of no value to anyone else. In that case, it is unlikely that any attorney would go after a man's home which is of dubious value.

If your friend hadn't abused his girlfriend, the family may be willing to work with your friend. I'd recommend starting there. This is where Karma kicks in for all concerned.

The girlfriend may have told other family members about the terms of ownership, which would carry weight if put into an affidavit.

The procedures for what to do following a death are pretty much the same for each State. You need to put a notice in at least two printed newspapers announcing the death and saying who to contact if anyone wants to file a claim against the estate. This notification puts a clock on how long people can wait to let you know the deceased owes a debt. After the time period runs out, further claims are barred. This protects the estate from ongoing claims.

All the heirs will need to be notified... kids, siblings, parents, and an estate needs to be opened in a court having jurisdiction. Based on the size of the estate, it is possible to open a small estate, an unsupervised estate, and an estate without bond (if the heirs are willing).

The small and unsupervised estates dispense with the mandatory reporting and sometimes will automatically close out the estate after a fixed period of time. The executor of the estate does not have to be an attorney in most cases. As long as the girlfriends family agrees, it could be the boyfriend.

Another post commented on the possibility of debt which would have to be paid off from the assets. Your friend may need to pay those debts off in order to retain ownership of the boat.

[StoneCrab]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

I think within this forum/topic people assume SSR is understood.

SSR = Small Ships Register, a method of registering recreational vessels < 24m in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-boat/the-uk-ship-register

Thanks... I didn't know.

[Apollo366]

Your assumption is not correct, on this side of the Atlantic Ocean we don't have such a way of registering.
Wish we did, it sounds like it would be less hassle than our present system.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hence no legal problems..

The ownership is decided by whoevers name is on the Bill of Sale... the SSR determines who is registered/authorised to operate the vessel.

Yes but it’s not proof of title.

Nor does it do what you said

Here’s the official description of part 3


Registering on Part 3 of the register means you’ll be able to prove your boat’s nationality when sailing outside UK waters.

( SSR was basically dreamed up to satisfy the French )

That’s it.

[torrmundi]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I called the Coast Guard about a similar issue two years ago. ... Further inquiry as to how the death of the owner is handled by them, they told me that the ownership is considered to be whatever is listed on the Documentation. So if you want the ownership to pass to your kids, they must be listed on the Documentation before you die.

My friend called the USCG doc center and they said pretty much as you did; with the cert of death, they'll recognize him as sole owner. Furthermore, the family said they'd "let him have it", which sounds magnanimous, except that he already has it according to the USCG.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by torrmundi

My friend called the USCG doc center and they said pretty much as you did; with the cert of death, they'll recognize him as sole owner. Furthermore, the family said they'd "let him have it", which sounds magnanimous, except that he already has it according to the USCG.

This is where it could get messy.

USCG records ownership. They don't assign it. If it's a more typical married couple or a joint ownership with post death ownership clearly spelled out by contract, the USCG recording you as sole owner likely would never be challenged. If no one challenges it, all is good.

If the court decides, her estate has outstanding debts or heirs who have a right to her half of the boat, I would expect they could undo the USCG recognition, tie it up and probably force it to be sold. If you act nefariously and get caught trying to pull a fast one by quickly moving it to your sole ownership, it's bad juju with the court.

[torrmundi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This is where it could get messy.

USCG records ownership. They don't assign it. If it's a more typical married couple or a joint ownership with post death ownership clearly spelled out by contract, the USCG recording you as sole owner likely would never be challenged. If no one challenges it, all is good.

If the court decides, her estate has outstanding debts or heirs who have a right to her half of the boat, I would expect they could undo the USCG recognition, tie it up and probably force it to be sold. If you act nefariously and get caught trying to pull a fast one by quickly moving it to your sole ownership, it's bad juju with the court.

Yes, this sounds correct. Furthermore, my friend will not be part of the probate proceedings, until & unless a will is found that gives him part of the estate. All the items to be done for the probate process will have to be done by her family.

[Hydro]

Depending on term of relationship and living arrangements (if both lived on boat or home even) it could be considered common law, though not legally married. The sole survivor would have legal entitlement and ownership of all assets.
This could vary by state/residency.
Also if they are both named on shared bills, taxes, expenses, bank accounts/CC/investments etc.

Maybe something to look into, I’m not sure how each state recognizes long term relationships.

[RickG]

A painful situation. I've dealt with the general situation owning a house and now our liveaboard boat with my partner of 22 years. For the house I had my family law attorney draw up a co-ownership agreement that details money in, ownership, tax benefits, life insurance and beneficiaries, and money out; the attorney said it was 98% of a prenuptial agreement and we should just get married. I used a simplified version of the co-ownership agreement for our liveaboard. We also have wills in place that acknowledge our current situation.

Why bother? I have kids and business assets / liabilities. I used to have a custody agreement with my ex, but that aged out. Good documents make for good relationships. Differences in expectations lead to disappointment, and eventually, to court.

Cheers, RickG

[ikebartlett]

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thr...d-mean.328813/

[kaisardog]

persons whose marriage is recognized in the state of their domicile own as 'tenants by the entireties' meaning that if one spouse dies the other automatically owns the entireties boat, house , bank accounts etc. persons who own as joint tenants do not automatically get title to a deceased partner's 'share'. in that case the survivor must get a notarized bill of sale from the estate which bill of sale will transfer the deceased partner's ownership interest to the survivor and be sufficient proof to issue state titles or the federal c ertificate of documentation. whatever the boat's value is must be e stablished, then the executor of the estate will authorize the sale by the estate to the survivor. the bill of sale will read ' E as executor of the estate of decedent D hereby sells and transfers all right title and interest of the decedent D in vesssel V for the sum of X dollars receipt of said sum is hereby acknowledged. the executor E will customarily include a copy 'under seal' of the official court order appointing E as executor and stating E is authorized under laws of the state S to transfer and sell all right title and interest of the decedent co owner D for value and price received. since executor like to collect money for the estate so the heirs can get their shares and the executor can get paid. my advice (as a lawyer) is that the survivor establish value of the boat, then contact the executor with a reasonable offer to bu out the decedent's share. the executor will do the paperwork, then once the survivor has the official papers from E, s/he can provide them to the USCG documentation system and renew the certificate of documentation in his /her sole name as sole owner. as a lawyer this is what i would tell a prospective client : 'don't hire me, you don't need me to do this for you.'and PS -- closing an estate where heirs are unknown and there's no will can take years.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by torrmundi

...

Yes, I know my friend needs a lawyer - I've told him. He lacks the money.
Thankyou!

Originally Posted by denverd0n

...
Sometimes the question is not if you can afford to hire a lawyer, but if you can afford to NOT hire a lawyer!

The friend needs to talk to a lawyer. Find out what the lawyer will cost and go get the money.

A family member was abandoned by her husband. He up and left. Just as he said he would do when the Social Security survivor payments stopped when her kids became adults...

We begged and pleaded with her to go see a lawyer, but because she had no money, she refused. We told her WE would pay for the lawyer and it would not be that much money. We BEGGED her to see the lawyer and consider it a gift. She needed to do this for a bunch of reasons but mainly to get her house in her name.

She refused.

Years later, the husband got cancer and need money for treatment. He emerged from the ooze and forced the sale of the house. As a result, the woman has been homeless ever since and has had to live with one family member after another. This has been going on for decades.

Her refusing to see a lawyer, at no cost, cost her at least a $100,000, forced her out of her house and forced her to get rid of things she loved. If she had stayed in the house, and I think she would have, that house today is likely worth at LEAST $500,000.

We have talked to lawyers many, many times for advice and told them to bill us. We have been billed, finally, ONCE. Yes, ONCE. I think it was $50 and well worth the cost.

The friend needs to talk to a lawyer.

Later,
Dan