Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

[Biggusstickus]

Check with the locals also from where the boat is kept. I was about to make an offer on a Riveria and just happened to ask someone about it at the club. He said it may have an engine issue but on test everything sounded and ran well. Anyway I called the local Volvo service agent and dealer and he informed me the motor had failed an oil test as well as the gearbox but the owner had not disclosed this to me. Estimated cost to replace 85K!!!!!!!
Due diligence is something that must be done very thoroughly.

[Capex]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

You can't "expect" the seller to repair/pay for anything. But you can ask him to and he they wouldn't you can walk away.

And don't let your surveyor put BS items in the report because the insurance company will just blindly make you do them.

Its usually best to negotiate further over the price with the seller as a result of your survey. this ensures that any repairs are up to your standards and not the sellers who is keen to get out of it with the least expense to himself.

Competent surveyors do not put BS items into their surveys and insurance companies don't require BS items to be attended to either. Insurance companies only want know that the risk that they are being asked to cover is a reasonable one. If you find an insurance company that is being unreasonable, then change companies. That's what insurance brokers are for.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Capex

Competent surveyors do not put BS items into their surveys and insurance companies don't require BS items to be attended to either.

Well since I have gotten a couple I can without any danger of being wrong tell you that you are wrong.

[Capex]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Well since I have gotten a couple I can without any danger of being wrong tell you that you are wrong.

Would you care to elaborate on what you call BS items?

[Suijin]

You should start with the initial listing. CPYB brokers are ethically required to represent the boat accurately and any significant flaws should be mentioned. You negotiate a price in good faith based on the representations that you have in hand.

After the inspection and survey, you're free to renegotiate price based on findings. If any equipment that from the listing you reasonably expected to be in good working order is not, renegotiate based on replacement cost. If electronics are not working, negotiate around the cost of a new unit and installation, not some vague estimate of repair. If a significant defect is found in the structure of the boat, renegotiate based on a conservative estimate of repair.

Do not under any circumstances agree to let the seller "correct" the defect before closing. The only reason for them to prefer this route is, obviously, the notion that they can fix it for less than the estimate.

So, after the inspection and survey, create a list of everything that departs from the represented condition of the boat. No item is too small. Leaking mast boot, deck hardware that needs rebeddinging, items at the end of their service life, etc. Put them all on the list, price it out, and revise your offer accordingly. It's your one chance to properly revalue your offer.

Challo, I think the salient point for you here is that items that are at the end of their service life due to wear and tear can reasonably come off the offer price. If they are at the end of their service life they are not in reasonable working order. This will certainly be a bone of contention around big ticket items, if you encounter them.

Everything after the revised offer is pure negotiation, and the seller can certainly walk away, but they are incented not to because they're close to a sale. Also, you've taken a rational, objective approach to revaluing your offer and it's difficult for them to argue credibly against that.

You should also, when negotiating the initial offer, have a list of all the prior sales of your type of boat/model for the previous year in hand. This will be the actual final contract price (which your broker can provide you) vs. the asking prices, which are meaningless. The list allows you to negotiate around current actual market value.

Also have in hand a list of all the other boats of the same make/model that are on the market. This can prove to be a good bargaining tool if the list gives you leverage in some way (there's a better outfitted boat at the same price down in FL, for example).

[Terra Nova]

Su--good post. But there is something that should be clarified regarding renegotiating items that are "near the end of their useful life". When a buyer makes his initial offer, he is already aware that (let's say) the electronics are not brand new. And he probably has (should have) a pretty good idea of just how old they are. It would be completely unreasonable for a buyer to try to grind the seller down, after the survey has been performed, because the surveyor comments on a fact he already knew when he and the seller agreed to his initial offer.

Also, if an obviously older piece of equipment is found to be non-operational, it would be unreasonable for a buyer to attempt to renegotiate based on the cost of replacing it with a brand new one.

[Dulcesuenos]

Hope he doesnt have any back up offers, sometimes the seller gets a better backup offer, and the buyer wants to renegotiate the price and the seller backs out, or just changes their mind. Ive seen more than one buyer spend thousands, try to get an adjustment only to allow the seller to back out

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Su--good post. But there is something that should be clarified regarding renegotiating items that are "near the end of their useful life". When a buyer makes his initial offer, he is already aware that (let's say) the electronics are not brand new. And he probably has (should have) a pretty good idea of just how old they are. It would be completely unreasonable for a buyer to try to grind the seller down, after the survey has been performed, because the surveyor comments on a fact he already knew when he and the seller agreed to his initial offer.

Also, if an obviously older piece of equipment is found to be non-operational, it would be unreasonable for a buyer to attempt to renegotiate based on the cost of replacing it with a brand new one.

It depends. I was referring to items that are subject to wear and tear. Older electronics that work as spec'ed are what they are and it's true it would be unreasonable to negotiate over them. After all, they were also (usually) specified in the listing. But if say, one of the displays on the boat does not work at all, it's reasonable to deduct its replacement cost from the offer, or at least include it as an item for negotiation.

But there is far more to the condition of a boat than the obvious parts that are specified. If the boat has a mechanical system that is basically shot but still functioning (the steering quadrant and pedestal, for example), it's entirely reasonable to negotiate around it, and it makes sense to use its replacement cost as a starting point for negotiation. Yes you can still steer that boat with it, but it's at the end of its service life, and its condition was more than likely not divulged in the listing.

It's a matter of representation. If the boat was listed as being in "bristol" condition, that warrants a certain level of fitness and maintenance. If it was listed as "needs work but still has many miles in her" then you are far more constrained. But in either case you have to adopt a method for the process and evaluating the boat against its initial description gives you a rational basis for negotiation.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Capex

Its usually best to negotiate further over the price with the seller as a result of your survey. this ensures that any repairs are up to your standards and not the sellers who is keen to get out of it with the least expense to himself.

Competent surveyors do not put BS items into their surveys and insurance companies don't require BS items to be attended to either. Insurance companies only want know that the risk that they are being asked to cover is a reasonable one. If you find an insurance company that is being unreasonable, then change companies. That's what insurance brokers are for.

Would it help further to ask my insurance broker to recomand me a surveyer ?

[MarkSF]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

Would it help further to ask my insurance broker to recomand me a surveyer ?

Almost certainly not. The best way to find a good surveyor is by personal recommendation. I've even had some kind souls on this forum send me examples of good surveys done.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Suijin

It depends. I was referring to items that are subject to wear and tear. Older electronics that work as spec'ed are what they are and it's true it would be unreasonable to negotiate over them. After all, they were also (usually) specified in the listing. But if say, one of the displays on the boat does not work at all, it's reasonable to deduct its replacement cost from the offer, or at least include it as an item for negotiation.

But there is far more to the condition of a boat than the obvious parts that are specified. If the boat has a mechanical system that is basically shot but still functioning (the steering quadrant and pedestal, for example), it's entirely reasonable to negotiate around it, and it makes sense to use its replacement cost as a starting point for negotiation. Yes you can still steer that boat with it, but it's at the end of its service life, and its condition was more than likely not divulged in the listing.

It's a matter of representation. If the boat was listed as being in "bristol" condition, that warrants a certain level of fitness and maintenance. If it was listed as "needs work but still has many miles in her" then you are far more constrained. But in either case you have to adopt a method for the process and evaluating the boat against its initial description gives you a rational basis for negotiation.

I consider the value of electronics in general as part of the negociation. In todays progress they get obsolete quiete fast. Even properly functioning upgrating has to be expected and worse in case of repair electronic components get obsolete very fast. I would not want anything else than OEM components in vital electronics such as navigation, comunication.Also upgrating is only posible to a certain extend.

Discription of listings
As I don´t beleave that a seller discribes his boat worse than it is I don´t beleave in those.
Bristine to me means as new or replaced with new.
Any thing that sounds like Needs Work for me means it needs more work than the seller for what ever reason admids and here my opinion and the one of the seller in regards for shure will not be the same

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Capex

Its usually best to negotiate further over the price with the seller as a result of your survey. this ensures that any repairs are up to your standards and not the sellers who is keen to get out of it with the least expense to himself.

Competent surveyors do not put BS items into their surveys and insurance companies don't require BS items to be attended to either. Insurance companies only want know that the risk that they are being asked to cover is a reasonable one. If you find an insurance company that is being unreasonable, then change companies. That's what insurance brokers are for.

I like that aproach.....creating a solid basis for negotiation.
Besides a few black sheeps that won´t last long I expect at least that the surveyer defends the interests of the one who pays the bills.

As far as defects on a survey that leaves little room for discussion. Here I would not be worried.
The question here remains if my surveyer has the knowledge and experience to detect those defects ?

The second importand thing that comes to my mind is detecting the stage of the service life of the different parts of the boat.
One could determin that simply by time factor but I beleave here an in depth investigation of use and inspection comes a lot closer to reality.
This percentage of service life left over would represent the true value in regards to the price when new of A CURRENT MODEL. Here the fact of an older model should be repercuted.
But just calculating service live by time factor would drive the price down to a point that many times the negotiation would not have a happy end.
I would start with evaluating with priorities. First the vital parts and after that the expensive parts and and trying to get an agreement a little looser by
time factor if the priority is agreed to
A good survey should be able to lay the ground for this aproach.
In the case of buying a boat I don´t want to steal. I would be satisfied if I could buy for the true market value based on that quality of the survey.

But how to find a surveyer with that experience?
Are there at least surveyers specialized to certain boats manufacturers ?

[Island Time O25]

Here is my personal experience with buying my current boat. As I was looking at certain length(30ft)/price range this boat was not coming up. Than a boating friend recommended upping my price range just a bit since his opinion at the time (2010) was that the the market was soft enough to knock that down easily. So all of a sudden I had all these extra boats to consider. Then by accident in the length field I typed 25-36 instead of 25-30 and now my current boat came up. I was intrigued. So asked around and had generally positive recommendations at least to go and see it. As it was 1hr away and I wanted to keep those trips to a minimum if possible, I asked my two marine pro buddies to come with me. After a thorough almost survey of the boat they both gave their thumbs up while pointing out some minor issues and some possible other issues to be checked by the misture meter, etc. (turned out to be minor to non-existent). So it was time for a surveyor. I used a guy I used before, about 4-5 years back, when I almost bought a Morgan 33 OI. He did a fairly decent survey (did miss a few things but in the scheme of things it turned out OK as if had he not missed them I might have passed on this boat and who knows if I had found as good of a deal on this quality of a boat). His estimated market value came to about 35% higher than the asking price. He said that this was not very usual as most boats he surveys come out closer to the asking price on either side. I checked the history of the pricing and it was confirmed that the boat was recently (a week or so prior) dropped by about 20-25% and so very few people looked at it at the new price. The seller was adamant that although he needed to sell the boat (it was his 3rd boat) he would not budge any lower. And I'm sure he was thinking the same thing the surveyor was telling me. I never showed him the survey other than the portions with some deficiencies but he basically told me take or leave at the price he dropped to. Eventually he shaved off $1,000 but this was more to prod me into moving her from the yard as he was facing mid season bill and would have lost that 1,000 anyway. And while the boat was a tad too big than what I wanted and a tad too outside my price range, I am happy I sucked it up and went ahead with the purchase as probably had I bought a 30footer, by now I'd be ready for a 36 footer anyway but would have had to give 30footer practically away so my end result would be more money spent in the long run. The 30footer in question was a nice 1984 Comar Comet listed for just a tad less than the 36footer but it had some things I did not like - hull liner, tiller, some skeg/rudder issues, 6ft draft, etc. But it looked like a great sailor and was pronounced as such by one of my marine pro buddies. So I guess I subconsciously followed the advice given on CF often - buy the biggest boat you can afford.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Here is my personal experience with buying my current boat. As I was looking at certain length(30ft)/price range this boat was not coming up. Than a boating friend recommended upping my price range just a bit since his opinion at the time (2010) was that the the market was soft enough to knock that down easily. So all of a sudden I had all these extra boats to consider. Then by accident in the length field I typed 25-36 instead of 25-30 and now my current boat came up. I was intrigued. So asked around and had generally positive recommendations at least to go and see it. As it was 1hr away and I wanted to keep those trips to a minimum if possible, I asked my two marine pro buddies to come with me. After a thorough almost survey of the boat they both gave their thumbs up while pointing out some minor issues and some possible other issues to be checked by the misture meter, etc. (turned out to be minor to non-existent). So it was time for a surveyor. I used a guy I used before, about 4-5 years back, when I almost bought a Morgan 33 OI. He did a fairly decent survey (did miss a few things but in the scheme of things it turned out OK as if had he not missed them I might have passed on this boat and who knows if I had found as good of a deal on this quality of a boat). His estimated market value came to about 35% higher than the asking price. He said that this was not very usual as most boats he surveys come out closer to the asking price on either side. I checked the history of the pricing and it was confirmed that the boat was recently (a week or so prior) dropped by about 20-25% and so very few people looked at it at the new price. The seller was adamant that although he needed to sell the boat (it was his 3rd boat) he would not budge any lower. And I'm sure he was thinking the same thing the surveyor was telling me. I never showed him the survey other than the portions with some deficiencies but he basically told me take or leave at the price he dropped to. Eventually he shaved off $1,000 but this was more to prod me into moving her from the yard as he was facing mid season bill and would have lost that 1,000 anyway. And while the boat was a tad too big than what I wanted and a tad too outside my price range, I am happy I sucked it up and went ahead with the purchase as probably had I bought a 30footer, by now I'd be ready for a 36 footer anyway but would have had to give 30footer practically away so my end result would be more money spent in the long run. The 30footer in question was a nice 1984 Comar Comet listed for just a tad less than the 36footer but it had some things I did not like - hull liner, tiller, some skeg/rudder issues, 6ft draft, etc. But it looked like a great sailor and was pronounced as such by one of my marine pro buddies. So I guess I subconsciously followed the advice given on CF often - buy the biggest boat you can afford.

Thanks for the story....I enjoyed the happy end. Sounds like some angels were giving You a hand.
Obviously there were quiete some lucky coincidents that helped You further like a soft market, finding the boat close by and some competent help for first inspection.
Once at that point usually everything else falls in place and is just taking firm decisions for confirmation.
I also think big, better sailing, more space and better than to small. Can´t get rid of all them good old habits and my instincts tell me .... Waves have certain sizes and that can´t be changed. No racing elements and pure cruising concept for safety and comfort.

Good Luck
&
Fair Winds