Brokers are dumb? Or just us...

[Roniszoro]

I have been actively in the market for a new (to me) sloop for the last 9 months. So here is my take on the over 20 yacht brokers I've dealt with in my recent experience:


75% make used car salesmen look like the apex of honesty and integrity
25% are honest men or women
Of those 75% are graduates of the MLC School of Brokerage Management where MLC stands for Moe, Larry & Curly.


That leaves 6.25% as competent and honest.


So now, based on having spend hundreds and hundreds of $ going to see boats that turn out have been grossly misrepresented, I now hire a local surveyor to do a preliminary "look/see" for me to see if the listing accurately represents the boat itself. If it passes that test, then I move forward to the next step.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by DEAN2140

Bear in mind that the seller and his broker are obligated to tell any prospective buyer of the delamination uncovered by the survey and the buyer will probably ask for a copy of the survey.

The survey is owned by the purchaser who pays for it and he is under no obligation to pass it on to the broker or owner. The next prospective buyer contracts and pays for his own survey.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Suijin

How do you know that the broker did not offer to cover the reduction in your offer? If the seller was so angry that they raised the price out of spite they may well have refused any offer on the part of the broker.

Exactly what I was thinking. This sounds like a seller who doesn't really want to sell. He loves his baby and he is going to be angry at anybody who notices any flaws at all.


Move on. Forget it. There are lots of boats out there.

[friz]

Originally Posted by Wotname

You are joking aren't you, the broker didn't "blow up the deal". You and the vendor blew the deal because you couldn't come to an agreement over the price versus condition of the boat.

The broker was dumb to put his own money into the bottom cleaning and skipper which should have been paid by you (the potential purchaser) or the vendor. A written agreement with the vendor about paying for these services should be in place before the survey is undertaken.

And just why should the broker pay for your price reduction out of his commission. Remember the broker is working for the vendor, not for you.

Methinks your attitude of who pay should for what when buying a boat is not going to make it enjoyable experience for you

Bless your little hearts down there in Australia. Possibly "The Art of the Deal" has not made it your way as of yet? It looks to me as if the seller's broker is not a "closer".

[Thumbs Up]

This subject has come up many times before here. A broker gets you an ad on Yachtworld and jacks up the price on the boat ten percent. It also formalizes the purchase process and gives a salesman (with little actual knowlege of the vessel) a chance at sweet talking a potential buyer and saves the seller a lot of hassle. So why would boat buyers want to go through brokers? Is it because there are more boats advertised on Yachtworld than anywhere else? Is it because they like to get sweet talked and get their hands held when it is time to part with their money? A buyers broker will never show you a non brokered boat as they are always looking for a share in the commission unless you pay them directly a fee for their time. Looking at brokered boats makes buying convenient, but subjects you to sales tactics of seasoned salesman who know your weaknesses.

But if you are really looking for a good deal on a boat you have to look for all potential leads. Sailboatlistings lets us advertise our boats for free. Wouldn't you rather talk to actual owners? It is easy to think that you have to start your cruising adventure is South Florida because that is where a lot of boats are. But why not go to some out of the way place and buy a boat. Down here in hurricane safe Rio Dulce a Valiant 32 with a 500/hr Yanmar was just sold for $3000! Chances are, if you buy your "dream boat" in Florida and are cruising the Caribbean, come hurricane season you will want to be here, Grenada, or Panama anyway but a lot of you are not seeing past the "yachting lifestyle illusion" that is being projected on you in Florida. I have been advertising my 41' catamaran for a few years here in the NW Caribbean and have had very little interest. My ad kind of sucks (but I will redo it soon). I am prepping my boat right now to cruise Belize this season. I signed with a broker and had it on Yachtworld but hardly made a difference so I cancelled the contract. Maybe I should sail back to Florida because that is where people want to go to part with their money. No, brokers are not stupid. They know where the money is and where the newbies are. Most boats just sit in marinas most of the time. Cruising means different things to different people. People spend years getting a boat offshore ready. Check out some of the liveaboard marinas in S Florida and ask yourself why you would want to live there. I bought mine there. I had to pay $800. for a 2 day haulout!. If you stay there over 3 months you will be liable for state sales tax. In the six months that I was there I only took my dinghy out twice and both times I got a ticket! There are rude "water cops" everywhere there. Most docks don't allow liveaboard and there is almost nowhere to anchor. Is this how you want to start out? I forgot what my point here was going to be but I think that if you are going for "the cruising life" or the "Jimmy Buffet lifestyle" that you will need to learn how to function outside your comfort zone. And that if any of you might want to consider a unique catamaran for less than $88,000, you should look me up when you come here to look at boats.

[Caribbeachbum]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Exactly what I was thinking. This sounds like a seller who doesn't really want to sell. He loves his baby and he is going to be angry at anybody who notices any flaws at all.


Move on. Forget it. There are lots of boats out there.

I really don't know for sure that the broker didn't make the offer. But I'm pretty sure ... at least to do it "officially," he would have had to rewrite the conditional acceptance of yacht document and talk to us about it. And I don't know how angry the seller was, but I'm pretty sure the price increase was simply to provide (artificial) headroom for downward price negotiations with future potential buyers.

Regardless, we have indeed moved on and forgotten it. Next boat please!

[cyan]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not all ... I work with brokers everyday of the week and after 4621 surveys I can say I have met six brokers whom I respect. No different than any other profession , a few exceptional, a few dangerous and a great many incompetent.

Your responsibility is to find the good ones. Most people are not very good at this.

But your numbers DO seem different than any other profession. You have met 6 out of hundreds(?) of brokers that you respect. Six. Yikes.
If most people are not very good at finding the good ones, maybe it's because there are very few good ones?

boatpoker, you have given the community such wonderful help with your survey tips and website. I, for one, am truly grateful. Do you have any tips for finding the good broker? Using Yelp is quick but has gotchas. References? Personal referrals?
If there was something sudo-reliable such as ratemyprofessor.com for boat brokers, we might all be better for it.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by cyan

If most people are not very good at finding the good ones, maybe it's because there are very few good ones?

boatpoker, you have given the community such wonderful help with your survey tips and website. I, for one, am truly grateful. Do you have any tips for finding the good broker? Using Yelp is quick but has gotchas. References? Personal referrals?
If there was something sudo-reliable such as ratemyprofessor.com for boat brokers, we might all be better for it.

True, just like surveyors, the good ones are rare. I have no issues referring people to the good surveyors I know in Ontario because there is no conflict of interest. Hell, I'll name them right now ... John Bond, Peter McGuire, Craig Morley and David Buchanan. I do not give my trust easily.

I cannot name the brokers I trust as that could be construed as a conflict of interest. The good ones are out there but you really have to dig. I'll be surveying a boat in a few days where the broker has tried mightily to get the client to use his preferred surveyor who is known in the trade as "Drive by Bill" because he may or may not get out of the car to do the survey. DBB is the favourite of a number of brokers in my neck of the woods. Providing a list of a few surveyors is one thing but pressure to use a specific surveyor is your first clue something is not kosher. I am proud to say that two companies have banned me from surveying any boats they sell

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I am proud to say that two companies have banned me from surveying any boats they sell

I would say that, for a surveyor, that is a pretty darned significant badge of honor!

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not all ... I work with brokers everyday of the week and after 4621 surveys I can say I have met six brokers whom I respect. No different than any other profession , a few exceptional, a few dangerous and a great many incompetent.

Your responsibility is to find the good ones. Most people are not very good at this.

[curtis742]

I recently flew to Florida to check out a boat. The surveyor began his inspection. At the same time I began mine. He was systematically covering the boat from stem to stern. Taking pictures and not commenting much. I have a laser thermometer and a moisture meter. I observed sla k in the mizen shrouds and mushrooms growing out of the teak deck and went below. Checked the refrigerator temperature then went straight to the keel stepped mast with the moisture meter. It was water logged and rotted. Called the surveyor over to verify and ended the process. The broker assured me over the phone the masts were sound and the boat was dry. I came away with the impression the broker was lieing her behind off and the surveyor was avoiding the common problem areas in order to get paid the full amount for surveying the boat. Can't blame him for that I guess. I educated myself prior to the encounter and knew what to look for as far as the deal breakers. As I was walking away the price was dropping. I was being set up to be skinned and got out with the surveyor not charging anything due to my killing the deal in under 30 minutes. Florida has great seafood and the drinks weren't bad either. Just wasted a plane ticket and hotel room. It was good to get out of the house for a while

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by curtis742

I recently flew to Florida to check out a boat. The surveyor began his inspection. At the same time I began mine. He was systematically covering the boat from stem to stern. Taking pictures and not commenting much. I have a laser thermometer and a moisture meter. I observed sla k in the mizen shrouds and mushrooms growing out of the teak deck and went below. Checked the refrigerator temperature then went straight to the keel stepped mast with the moisture meter. It was water logged and rotted. Called the surveyor over to verify and ended the process. The broker assured me over the phone the masts were sound and the boat was dry. I came away with the impression the broker was lieing her behind off and the surveyor was avoiding the common problem areas in order to get paid the full amount for surveying the boat. Can't blame him for that I guess. I educated myself prior to the encounter and knew what to look for as far as the deal breakers. As I was walking away the price was dropping. I was being set up to be skinned and got out with the surveyor not charging anything due to my killing the deal in under 30 minutes. Florida has great seafood and the drinks weren't bad either. Just wasted a plane ticket and hotel room. It was good to get out of the house for a while

I (surveyor) have had three in the last month that I advised people to walk in less than 20 minutes. One in less than 5min with a 3'X6' poorly done repair on a balsa cored hull that I saw before I got out of the car. The owner had tried to get buyer to accept an existing recent survey that said nothing about it. This kind of deception seems be becoming more common.

[aboatman]

Why should a broker reduce his fee so you could have your boat? Will he enjoy it once you purchase it? Did he enjoy it while the seller had it? Also by reducing his fee as a contribution to the repairs he is in effect creating a position of responsibility in the repair. Should the repair not be effective in the future he has put himself in the position of still being responsible for the repair, will you then go back to him and ask for more money for a corrected repair?
The purchase is between buyer and seller not the broker. Brokers work for either the buyer or seller and in such cases where they are in dual capacity they must remain objective. By "cutting his fee" he would be favoring the seller by enticing you to purchase a vessel with defects and therefore not be a neutral party. Just suppose he gave up a portion of his commission and then the repairs were more extensive would you then go back and ask for more money? If the repairs were less would you then refund him some of the money he gave up? Seems to me a typical financial overreach scenario, so blame the broker.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by aboatman

Why should a broker reduce his fee so you could have your boat? Will he enjoy it once you purchase it? .....

It is done all the time. The broker gets his portion of the commission only when the boat sale closes. If it doesn't close, like in the OPs case the broker gets nothing. 6 grand in your hand is better than a possibility of 10 grand in a year. One of the few things that a broker adds to a sale is to deal with the inevitable issues that come up just before closing.

[Icarus]

That's kinda funny...when you try to sell something and you get an offer you don't like raise the price...
I see it this way, you keep the boat and I keep my money...kinda simple.
As for brokers...I sold three yachts without a broker, why would you need one?
Happy days!