Adding 5ft means what in extra $$$?!

[presentmoment]

Thanx guys...thats tons of info for now. And I agree with David_old_jersey: Yes I need to get on some boats. I am working on it...I should be crewing on a CAT within a month or so and then I can get on all the boats I happen to make friends with. Since I will be living on it I wont get too small but sounds like no more than 35 foot for me (and maybe a bit less), since I want to be able single-hand and still have some guests once in a while. I will look into those boat suggestions too. Appreciate it all guys...

[presentmoment]

plus i wont be buying for at least a year (maybe longer) so I have lots of time to figure it all out if I can maintain the pace of info I have been absorbing recently!

[Cheechako]

Fuel is probably of minimal concern. My 47 footer with 85 hp diesel burned about 1 gal per hour. 44 footer with 51 hp diesel burned about 5/8 gal per hour. 30 footer with 25 hp diesel burned maybe <1/2 gal per hour....

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Personally I would say that if 35 foot (plus or minus a couple of feet, depending on the boat / the deal) ain't enough room (and boat) for a single person then perhaps being onboard a boat 24/7 for extended periods ain't for you.

BINGO! I think DOJ just nailed it.

[presentmoment]

I agree with DOJ as well on the size. From my experience, living simple & small is a plus. I doubt I will need as big as a 35fter...just need to check out some more models inside thats all.

[westsail374]

Check out the Bristol 35.5- built strong, great fast Ted Hood design. Look at the cent board variant if interested in shallow water.

[rebel heart]

Regarding size and cost, look up the associated costs with these items:

- anchor
- chain
- windlass
- self steering
- line sizes (main sheet, jib sheets, etc)
- new/used sails
- prop

Those are just the ones that come to mind first. Bigger boats generate more windage, weigh more, need to be held down by more gear, and propelled by bigger engines with bigger props. Trying to say that a 30' boat is going to cost the same as a 40' to equip and maintain is completely inaccurate. You're going to carry the same size and amount of ground tackle on a 30' as a 40'? The windlass is the same? On a 30' you can even get by with no windlass, vs on a 40' you'll almost definitely have an electric, and of course you'll be running nearly 40' of HUGE cable, both ways. Have fun pricing that out.

Most of the big boats I know sit at their slips and I can honestly understand why a lot of owners are intimated by their own vessels. They buy something way beyond their skillset and are stuck piloting something I (as a licensed and experienced captain) wouldn't want to deal with.

[barnakiel]

One: I do not (IMHO, personal and so biased) see how extra 5 ft add anything to maintenance, all other things equal. What adds to maintenance is the general type and layout/outfit of a boat. Say plenty of wood/varnish adds maintenance, painted spars add maintenance, external cast iron keel adds maintenance, but extra 5 ft just adds extra 5 ft to maintenance - for a 30 to 35 upgrade this is only maybe 15% more of a boat, hardly a noticeable difference.

I also fail to see how the extra 5 ft adds any volume. It may. It may not. If the two boats are same design (say a Baba 30 vs. Baba 35), then yes. But one can easily upgrade 5 ft and lose volume - some smaller designs are surprisingly voluminous, some longer boats are very, very tight down below. If anything, go for a 5 ft upgrade of your BEAM. (Our own boat is 26', I go into a Contessa 32 and I find the same volume and LESS storage space, doh).

Other than these: 5ft extra is more in -marina berth, - boatyard fees, -consumable material and deck hardware.

My take: buy the 5 extra feet but buy them wisely.

Cheers,
b.

[sloopygirl]

I cruised the Caribbean in a 35' Morgan, then upgraded to a CT47 - BIG difference. When you have a bigger boat, you need more systems - more systems require more power - bigger battery bank and then some ways to charge - I had solar and wind genny. Rigging went from small looking wire to 12 mm for the largest size on the CT47 - that's about 1/2". Haulouts costs more, bottom paint, etc. If you're not at anchor most of the time, you'll pay lots more for moorings or dockage. Of course being at anchor most of the time would require larger chain AND anchors, not to mention the windlass. Yes, the comfort level is WAY up on a larger boat and it spoils you. But if you can get by on a smaller one - go for it. After all, you want to be out there having fun and enjoying it rather than working for another year to get a bigger boat!

[justwaiting]

I generally agee with almost of that has been said but i may be able to add a couple of things from my own experiences/mistakes.

Maintenance costs are roughly related to the LOD of a boat, a calculation that i was given is that the surface area of the hull is the square of the length I don’t think that it is all that accurate but it does provide a reasonable guide to how costs increase with size. Try plotting them on a graph (2 ft intervals) and you will see what happens.


Not only do these numbers (when expressed as ratios) give you an insight in to the effect on hull maintenance but also many other things relating to sails, control lines ... even the cost of running electrical wire (ie longer runs require bigger wires to overcome resistance ...) Naturally some costs are some what fixed, regardless of size but this is offset by the fact that bigger boats normally have more complex systems.


What i found was these calculations do not take in to account are what i consider to be personal costs (Food, water and social costs). The smaller the boat the less food and water you can carry without over loading the boat resulting in more frequent needs to restock and often at higher prices. My experience (other will differ) was that pushed up fuel costs and increased visits to marinas.

Nothing in cruising is simple - smaller boats have lower berth fees, sound simple but it is not. When i was in the 28ft and sat in a marina due to the weather it was so shut in that i ended up spending a lot of time in the coffee shop and buying "stuff" for the boat. On the other hand when i was in the 43ft boat i sat out a cyclone at anchor without the boat closing in on me. It cost me less to have the larger boat because the extra maintenance/upgrade costs were offset by lower personal and marina costs.


My mistakes - the 28ft was too small for my needs, the V berth was unusable because of lack of ventilation so it got jammed full of crap which got damp and made the boat hobby horse like mad. The cockpit seats were too short to stretch out on and sleep on those airless nights.
The 43ft was too big. collected to much crap, too many unfinished projects ....


The boat i am looking for is between 34 and 37ft (would go to 41 ft for the right trade offs) with good opening ports and hatches.

The costs that you will need to consider are purchase, upgrades, maintenance, and personal costs.

[Sandero]

Not all boats of the same OAL will have the same volume/accommodations/ sailing performance and cost! Shiva, a Contest 36s is a very large 36... with a high free board and flush deck, huge cockpit and a fast sailer... It's a very comfortable boat with all the creature comforts except AC.. easy to single hand and comfy for a couple to live aboard.. lots of lockers for stores. She's spendy for a 36 but I'd compare her plan to many 40 footers.

Boats are expensive... when done right...fuel is not a biggie but everything with *marine* in front of the description is spendy. 36 is more than enough to care for...

[Ex-Calif]

For me it is (intuitively not empirically) the step between 35 and 40...

At 40 feet the gear gets bigger, you no longer can manhandle the sheets in a blow - everything starts to get winched. It is much more difficult to single hand. Actually I would go so far that in a blow it can be unsafe to single hand a boat this big. And if you set it up with remote windlasses and autopilots and stuff you now have more gear that costs initially and can fail later.

Aside from the stuff that Rebel Heart pointed out - bottom paint, rigging, docklines, fenders - everything starts to get "big." And therefore so do the costs.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Although I (and others) have been mostly talking 35 foot, nonetheless less is perfectly doable.

However at 30' (and under) choice drops on a boat that is suitable, not only on seaworthiness (broadly speaking - bigger is better, albeit exceptions apply) but also on extended living aboard freindliness.

Of course folks have gone long voyages (including RTW) for extended periods on under 30 foot boats (and a few even under 20 foot! - google up Shrimpy and Shane Acton), but that very much down to the capabilities of the Skipper and his (or her!) willingness to accept less than average on creature comforts / modcons - including on such "luxuries" as headroom and swinging a cat . Plus not all small boats are capable simply by design (most are intended as day sailors / overnighters) - bigger does add to capability (not to say that it would be wise to go transocean, or even in a blow on everything over 30 feet).

At the risk of bigging up my own boat (especially as I am Dockbound ) - nonetheless to give you an idea of what 30' can have (and the compromises that involves) have a look at a Seadog 30:-



https://sites.google.com/a/jaytac.com/seadog/

A couple have gone RTW, and one even went up to the Arctic Circle (intention was to circumnavigate Russia - but the Russians kyboshed that idea), of course all that as much to do with the Skippers as the boats - and in the case of the Russian adventure perhaps also to do with the Skipper being somewhat optimistic. or mental .....and with that draft would have no problem in the Canals. (Triple keels work well over here - because we built our harbours on dryland - as you can see from the pic above that also useful when you misjudge the tide, she is in the harbour entrance - that was semi-intentional, as knew it was touch and go and that it didn't matter either way).

Main downside is that not exactly the most nimble boat on the water under sail. On the creature comforts side the biggie is not having full length cockpit seats to snooze on , but trust me that plenty of other places to snooze on! - part of the reason for the extended refit . A large part of .

Which then brings me onto cost and availability. In the case of a Seadog 30 they are a UK built boat (I think only 1 or 2 in North America) and only approx 140 built, so availability in good to go condition not great, especially not in North America .........FWIW mine was fundamentally good to go - until I got hold of her and started putting a bit of (deferred) TLC into her. I think that was about 5 years back (to be fair, life has majorly intervened a few times in the interim ).........but you could pick up a good one for approx USD40k, a not so good one for around USD25k. The USD40k one would be cheaper.....unless you can also throw time into the equation.

I mention all that because the boats were built in the 60's and very early 70's - and to my mind with your budget that vintage will be where the sweet spot is on price vs capabilities........but the trick is to buy a good enough one - and not to misunderestimate what a bit of TLC involves, let alone a major refit. Compromises will of course need to be made (in many respects newer designs can be better!) and not everything from that era is a great boat, but time tends to identify those which were not - plus by now plenty on the internet about shortcomings and common faults / fixes (all boats have them).......the big risk from starting from a low knowledge base (and therefore relying heavily on others, including a Surveyor) is that you buy more than you chew (aka a Pig in a Poke!) - remember, that some boats are worthless (worth less than bought for!, and sometimes that is less than zero - no matter the sale price)......if you want to drown yourself in forewarnings a read of the Refurb thread in my sig would be a good idea.

Lots to chew over with boats .

[rgscpat]

How big is big enough? There will be a certain minimum size to handle whatever creature comforts, provisions, and gear you need to do whatever it is you want to do. How much stuff do you need? How much space do you need? Do you really need headroom -- in how much of the boat? Can there be such a thing as too big, in terms of forces you have to work with, how tall you have to be to flake the main, or too much headroom?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

One: I do not (IMHO, personal and so biased) see how extra 5 ft add anything to maintenance, all other things equal. What adds to maintenance is the general type and layout/outfit of a boat. Say plenty of wood/varnish adds maintenance, painted spars add maintenance, external cast iron keel adds maintenance, but extra 5 ft just adds extra 5 ft to maintenance - for a 30 to 35 upgrade this is only maybe 15% more of a boat, hardly a noticeable difference.

I also fail to see how the extra 5 ft adds any volume. It may. It may not. If the two boats are same design (say a Baba 30 vs. Baba 35), then yes. But one can easily upgrade 5 ft and lose volume - some smaller designs are surprisingly voluminous, some longer boats are very, very tight down below. If anything, go for a 5 ft upgrade of your BEAM. (Our own boat is 26', I go into a Contessa 32 and I find the same volume and LESS storage space, doh).

Other than these: 5ft extra is more in -marina berth, - boatyard fees, -consumable material and deck hardware.

My take: buy the 5 extra feet but buy them wisely.

Cheers,
b.

yeah, as I said earlier, it's boat specific. Buy a larger boat with all the big items recently replaced and the maint. cost is only minimally higher.