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Old 11-12-2017, 08:52   #16
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

I lived aboard for nine years in the Port Credit area on a 28ft sailboat and can give you a few ideas to work with:

Shrink wrap your boat. If allowed, clear is very good as it helps to warm the boat on sunny days and gives you more light. White does neither of these but offers more privacy.

Shore Power. Some people have tried to get by with 30 amps into the boat. Don't do it. You will need the extra power for heat, TV, radio and anything else that adds to your creature comforts. I always paid for 60 amps (two shore power cords). One ran a small heater in the engine compartment and the required Christmas lights, the other heated and powered the interior of the boat. I rejigged my extra 30 amp cord so that it had a utility 110 amp receptacle box on one end. As a point of reference, I normally used about 45-50 amps on a regular day but harsh weather did, on occasion, overpower the capabilities of the whole dock system.

Use a "bubbler". This is a submersible electric fan that is used to displace water and help to keep an open area of water so that your boat floats. It is suspended about 10 feet under the boat and is slung with a couple of lines between your finger and the main spine of the dock. It should be "aimed" so that most of the turbulent water is pointed at the most inaccessible parts of the boat. If you're backed in your slip on a port side tie up, aim the bubbler so that the bow and starboard side get the most benefit. An 8 foot 2x4 can be used to keep the ice between the boat and dock busted up and cleared out. A 3/4 hp bubbler is good for a boat up to about 30 feet. While there is some noise created by these things, after a while it becomes "white and you don't really hear it. Do not turn it off until ice out.

Your heaters: 1500 watt element heaters don't actually give you 1500 watts. Once an element heats up red hot, by nature it becomes highly resistant and power doesn't flow through as well. If you are going to try them, look for the type that has a ceramic element like the old 'Micro-Furnace". I found the long baseboard stye of heater worked very well. They're much more efficient and are quiet. Oil filled heaters work well also but can leak. I ran an oscillating micro furnace and a large baseboard (adjust temp hi/low to fit) inside and another micro-furnace on low in the engine compartment. These are left on 24/7 so must be reliable. Do not "Cheap Out on these, period.

The secret weapon for winter liveaboards... an electric blanket. Use an electric blanket where you sleep. Place it under the sheet, on top of the cushions, then use your regular blankets on top. Put the electric blanket on a very low setting about 15 minutes or so before you go to bed and a team of horses will have a difficult time dragging you out in the morning.

One final tip is to make sure that your boat can breathe. If you bottle up all ventilation inside. condensation from breathing alone will build up and create probles. While it seems counter intuitive, make sure that there is adequate airflow through the boat. I had a nicro-vent through the cabin top and when needed, I cracked open a port light or two.

The real trick to Wintering on your boat is to be comfortable. If you're not, you won't have a very good time. You can take these and other ideas and adjust them to your specific needs; there's no real right or wrong unless you are not enjoying the experience.
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:59   #17
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:06   #18
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

There are some harbors on the upper Mississippi where people keep their boats wet all winter, because it does not freeze. In some cases, they have bubblers. The popularity of this practice has declined with the arrival of zebra mussels, which will tend to colonize the boat and anything else in the water. Including the bubblers.

It has always been a tradeoff between the hassle and expense of hauling the boat, vs. the hassle and expense of dealing with additional wear and tear.

The boats left in the water are typically the larger power boats that are at the point in their life where a transition from navigable vessel to liveaboard is imminent.
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:55   #19
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

You've gotten a lot of good advice!

I have spent a number of winters on board above 50N, although the Gulf Stream generally keeps it above freezing (just) here.

To all the good advice I would only add that I would absolutely not do something like you're contemplating without diesel heat in addition to the electric heat. Either a bulkhead pot heater (Dickensen, Sig, etc.) or a truck-type heater (Espar, Webasto, etc.). You would be in a world of hurt if you lost shore power, and you likely will at least once over a cold winter. If you have room for it, a pot heater is probably best of all for liveaboard use as it is completely autonomous, requiring no electrical power at all, and is user-maintainable. For really cold weather, you can run both the pot heater and electric to keep the temperature up.

Different boats are different, but 3500 watts of electric heaters don't keep my boat warm if it's below freezing -- I need to add my hydronic Espar heater (10kW).

As someone pointed out, keep in mind the huge difference in practical heat output compared to rated power of electrical heaters. Quartz heaters, and oil filled radiators, put out FAR less than their rated power -- they cycle on and off due to limitations in dissipating the heat produced. Fan heaters are far more efficient in this regard, and that's what I use.

Another thing -- be awfully careful with all that amperage. I would be loathe to heat a boat with electrical power on 110v. There is a considerable risk of fire. Make the wiring and everything is in top condition and check everything for heating up. Also, if you have a Hubbel shore power connection -- throw it away and fit a SmartPlug or some other modern shore power connection. The Hubbel connection will melt down pretty soon if you try to heat the boat with electricity through it, and it can be really dangerous.
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Old 11-12-2017, 13:58   #20
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

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Originally Posted by carlheintz View Post
Well here is my perspective from snowy Michigan...
You're taking some major risks here.
Keeping the boat insides warm doesn't preclude ice forming outside the boat and pushing against it.
Using bubblers is only so good for only so long.. and is no guarantee that ice won't push from elsewhere
Snow will accumulate on top of the boat. Water is heavy. If you don't keep the topsides cleaned off, the boat will flounder from the weight of the snow and ice accumulated on top of her. This can be especially dangerous where the snow partially melts, then re-freezes, forming layers of heavy ice and snow.

My recommendation: haul her and don't press your luck.
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Old 11-12-2017, 14:34   #21
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

If you can't afford a bubbler here's what I made to keep ice off our docks at the club I belong to. Buy a submersible sump pump, stick a two foot length of PVC pipe on it. Cap the pipe and drill a bunch of holes in the cap. lower it {on a line} into the water and plug in. Forgot, I lash to float just to keep it from flopping. These work very well. Same principal as bubblers raise the warmer water from the bottom to the surface. I found this years ago in some publication, can't take credit for it.
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Old 11-12-2017, 14:54   #22
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

Ice is not going to hurt your boat at all unless you are moored in a river that gets ice several feet thick which will become a problem when it moves out in the spring. It can be hard on your bottom paint at the waterline. A good bit of snow on deck is great insulation, don't remove it unless you are getting too deep in the water. If you don't install a diesel heater that is independent of shore power you need to have a backup plan for when the power goes out which it will. Winterize your engine and as much of your water system as possible and have the means to finish the job on short notice when you lose power. Be wary of those "cube" heaters, they are a fire hazard if they fall over or something falls over them. If you don't want to install a permanent heating system onboard consider using an infrared panel heater such as Prestyl which pose no fire hazard with a low surface temperature.
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Old 11-12-2017, 16:31   #23
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

If you are at Harbor North you should know who to talk to about wintering in the water.
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Old 11-12-2017, 20:23   #24
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

I just finished reading reports in boat fires. Seemed like a pretty high percentage of those fires nationally were attributed to the dock service connection to the boat. The electrician showed many photos of why this happens. Using too much ampage, surface area of blade as it connects to surface when we rotate the plug into receptacle. Corrosion problems... on and on. He highly advises switching over to the Smart system. They are not cheap.

You will be drawing a ton of amperage. Be smart. Also I think as other posters are saying... maybe a diesel heater also. I think it might be a little late to be installing that in December. But at least get the Smart Plug if you don't have it yet.
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Old 11-12-2017, 20:29   #25
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
I just finished reading reports in boat fires. Seemed like a pretty high percentage of those fires nationally were attributed to the dock service connection to the boat. The electrician showed many photos of why this happens. Using too much ampage, surface area of blade as it connects to surface when we rotate the plug into receptacle. Corrosion problems... on and on. He highly advises switching over to the Smart system. They are not cheap.

You will be drawing a ton of amperage. Be smart. Also I think as other posters are saying... maybe a diesel heater also. I think it might be a little late to be installing that in December. But at least get the Smart Plug if you don't have it yet.
Yes! We had a thread on this not long ago.

The standard Hubbell connectors -- designed in the 1930's -- are absolutely dreadful POS fire traps, in my opinion. They should be banned. Even with the luxury of 230v power, so not needing more than 16 to 18 amps, I used to burn them out regularly, and I think I'm lucky I never had a fire. I would never use electrical heat at 110v through a Hubbell connector.

Throw them away and install something designed, if not in this century, at least since World War II. I'm now using the standard IEC blue plug -- cheap and good, no heating, no scarring of the conductors, IP44 protected, so unlike the Hubell connectors, you can use them in the rain. But I believe the Smart Plug is the gold standard.

Anyone using electric heat on board should really pay attention to this.
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Old 11-12-2017, 21:28   #26
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

To the OP:

Are you in a marina? If so ..I am surprised that they haven't shut the power and water off yet.
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Old 12-12-2017, 00:48   #27
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

Having spent a lot of years in Michigan there are the stray people who do it but really more hassle than it's worth.

20F air temps with liquid water that is likely still in the 40's is the easy part. When it gets to -15F (real temp plus a wind), now you will find out what it takes to heat the boat.

And if the power goes out, you lose the bubblers and the heat, so yes there are risks to the boat and to you.

Slipper decks and docks are definitely an issue, particularly before the ice is thick enough to walk on. It's cold enough to quickly kill if you fall in and the marina likely isn't clearing the snow.

Again it can be done but there's a reason not many do it.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:19   #28
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

Things I consider necessary to winter over onboard in the Great Lakes include: 1. A full winter weather cover using shrink-wrap or custom-made heavy canvas. 2. Bubblers or pumps to keep ice away from the hull. 3. A backup source of onboard heating should your shore power fail, because you absolutely cannot afford to let engine and water systems freeze up. Suggestions: 1. Keep a 100 watt light bulb under your engine oil pan 24/7; 400 pounds of metal makes a good heat sink and will give off warmth for a few hours if the primary heating system fails. 2. Rig one or more ladders so you can get ashore EASILY should you slip and fall into the water.
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Old 27-12-2017, 15:30   #29
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

Thus far, at 0 degrees it takes 250 watts plus a 125 watt heat lamp to maintain about 35-36 degrees in the bilge, while a 400 watt and a 750 watt(the 750 setting of a 750-1500 watt heater), to maintain mid 60's at 0 degrees outside.

I keep a constant watch on the receptacles & plugs.

In the rare instance when I run two heaters at 750, with the 250 watt and heat lamp, no recepacles or plugs feel warm(feels cool). At 1500 watt, with a 750 watt, the 250 watt and the 125 watt heat lamp, I begin to feel warmth on my plug and use that limit for very short periods of time .... 15 - 20 minutes, and the plug does not heat ... it's cool.

I generally use 400 or 750 watts to warm(actually to slowly cool) with on-off timers at half hour intervals. I then use the 250 watt, heat lamp and the 400 watt to heat the bilge at night ... all on timers that run during the off times of the other set of heaters.

Next morn, I am sleeping very comfortably under my 0-30 sleeping bag. The boat is about 54 degrees when it's down to about 20 outside and about 40 degrees when it's 0 outside.

Then I use the two 750's off timer, with the 250 watt and the 400 watt ... no heat lamp. until the boat heats to about 50-52 degrees(about half hour), when I then go to 250 watt, 2 750 watts and the heat lamp til the boat hits into the 60's(takes about an hour or so more at 0 degrees).

Power outage is always possible, but my boat is small for it's length and the dock is about 2 feet wide total ... actually, maybe not quite 2 feet wide. In all seriousness I doubt I'd want to fool around with a generator. A small efficient wood burner or diezel heater would be nice ... maybe being in Carolina would be nicer...
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Old 28-12-2017, 00:39   #30
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Re: Great Lakes and Wintering in the Water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SURV69 View Post
Thus far, at 0 degrees it takes 250 watts plus a 125 watt heat lamp to maintain about 35-36 degrees in the bilge, while a 400 watt and a 750 watt(the 750 setting of a 750-1500 watt heater), to maintain mid 60's at 0 degrees outside.

I keep a constant watch on the receptacles & plugs.

In the rare instance when I run two heaters at 750, with the 250 watt and heat lamp, no recepacles or plugs feel warm(feels cool). At 1500 watt, with a 750 watt, the 250 watt and the 125 watt heat lamp, I begin to feel warmth on my plug and use that limit for very short periods of time .... 15 - 20 minutes, and the plug does not heat ... it's cool.

I generally use 400 or 750 watts to warm(actually to slowly cool) with on-off timers at half hour intervals. I then use the 250 watt, heat lamp and the 400 watt to heat the bilge at night ... all on timers that run during the off times of the other set of heaters.

Next morn, I am sleeping very comfortably under my 0-30 sleeping bag. The boat is about 54 degrees when it's down to about 20 outside and about 40 degrees when it's 0 outside.

Then I use the two 750's off timer, with the 250 watt and the 400 watt ... no heat lamp. until the boat heats to about 50-52 degrees(about half hour), when I then go to 250 watt, 2 750 watts and the heat lamp til the boat hits into the 60's(takes about an hour or so more at 0 degrees).

Power outage is always possible, but my boat is small for it's length and the dock is about 2 feet wide total ... actually, maybe not quite 2 feet wide. In all seriousness I doubt I'd want to fool around with a generator. A small efficient wood burner or diezel heater would be nice ... maybe being in Carolina would be nicer...
Congratulations! That's a good result.

I've been on board, too, and it takes me 3000 watts of electric heat to keep just the salon and main cabin (rest of the boat is closed off) at 20C when it's a few degrees above freezing. If it were 0F like what you are having (brrr!), I could not keep the boat much above 10C, I think, with this amount of heat. I would have to add my 10 kilowatts of diesel hydronic heating, which is not working at the moment. But I have not only a big volume of interior to heat, but also a lot of ventilation through six large dorades. I am tempted from time to time to block them off to stop the cold wind from whistling in through them, but then I think about CO2 buildup and risk of CO wafting in from somewhere and I stop myself.


I would add some kind of diesel heater, if I were you. You could incur a lot of freeze damage if your power went out.


Good luck and have a good winter.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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