Draft for the Great Lakes

[Mirage35]

To avoid further thread drift we could move it over here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-179719.html

Right now the CS 36 Merlin seems to hit the sweet spots, but I'm open to other options. Follow up on the other thread if you have ideas.

[Saaabb]

Thanks to all for the quality of the information and the different perspectives.

Like suggested I had started to look at some places in lake Huron and Georgian bay (not the North), base on the chart not on your comments It's look like the 18" difference do not make a so big difference.

So performance under sail (not unanimous) or higher access to anchorages and marinas.

We have a lot of material... food for thought!

I will be back with the conclusion in October when our choice need to be done.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

Right now the CS 36 Merlin seems to hit the sweet spots, but I'm open to other options. Follow up on the other thread if you have ideas.

That IS a sweet boat! Did they ever make them with a sugar scoop?

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

To avoid further thread drift we could move it over here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...an-179719.html

Right now the CS 36 Merlin seems to hit the sweet spots, but I'm open to other options. Follow up on the other thread if you have ideas.

A good choice, especially if you can find one with the shoal draft option.

[LakeSuperior]

You ask for an optimum keel for the Great Lakes. Consider the following towards finding the optimum.

In the summer cruising months on the Great Lakes the rule of thumb is that you will motor 50% of the time. This fact alone reduces the weighting one would put toward having a more efficient deep draft keel.

There is a distribution in depths for favorable harbors, anchorages, bays, and coves that you will want to access while cruising. The simple math is that the less water you draw the more sites you will have access to.

When cruising the actual time spent underway sailing/motoring on the high side is 30 to 40% (of 24 hr days). More realistically, 20 to 30%. Therefore, sails up is 10 to 20% of the time. And since going upwind is slow most pick their weather to not have to go upwind. Many also motor sail upwind. So actual pure upwind sailing while cruising is a very small percentage of cruising. All the above reduce the weight you would put toward needing the deep draft keel.

In the extrema, a near zero draft gets you access to all the lake surface but your boat will only sail downwind. You could only go upwind or in the calms with a motor. A 20 foot draft gets you into the freighter lanes and ports exclusively.

The optimal then is somewhere in between and the logic points toward the shoal draft. You take a hit on upwind performance but you would rarely go upwind. The shoal draft gives you have great access to most bays, harbors, and coves that make cruising the Great Lakes so desirable.

There is a safety factor in that you have access to more protection and can tuck out of the way better with the shoal draft.

[Connemara]

If you plan on visiting sailng clubs in the Toronto area at some point, even 5'7" is gonna be too much.
Connemara

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

There is a distribution in depths for favorable harbors, anchorages, bays, and coves that you will want to access while cruising. The simple math is that the less water you draw the more sites you will have access to.

Its not just the number of marinas and anchorages....the ones you really want to visit most have shallow draft. I don't know about you, but I NEVER want to stay on a cement sea wall instead of the pristine anchorage nearby.

Attached are a few pics my kids took when we were near Mermaid Island (1000 islands, admiralty group) in 2009. This poor fella drew 6 feet. He was having a bad day. The more help he got from all the helpful guys in dinghies, the harder aground he became. Don't worry, he finally got himself off the rock and motored away. And my kids got a couple of their pictures published in the local paper!

[Tetepare]

Running down the south shore of Lake Ontario, I have put an "*" next to the places where a 7' draft may well be a problem, particularly in fall. Problem meaning getting to fuel/ docks. # indicates you may not even get into the harbor.

Youngstown
# Olcott
Rochester
# Irondequoit Bay
# Pultneyville
* Sodus
# Port Bay
# Fairhaven/ Little Sodus
Oswego
Henderson
Sacketts Harbor
Chamont (needs more info on fuel)
* Cape Vincent
* Clayton
* Alex Bay

Swinging back on the North Shore (and I'll ask our northern neighbors to pitch in)

Gananaque
Kingston
Prinyer's Cove
# Fisherman's Cove
* Waupoos
Picton, Deseronto, Bellville ????
Murray Canal ??
Cobourg
* Toronto

Chain of Islands "no man's land" not recognized by sailors as belonging to anyone except boaters:

* Galloo
# Main Duck
# False Ducks

Thousand Islands is simple: the less draft, the better. The best anchorages are quite shallow.

[Mike OReilly]

I’ve added a few and tried to follow your coding (mine in * ). Some of these are off-limits to me with my 6’ draft.

A good way to quickly scan for depths at service dock is to use Waterway Guide’s online Explorer tool:https://www.waterwayguide.com/explor...0859375&zoom=5
(disclosure: I am a Waterway Guide Cruising Editor for the Great Lakes)

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Running down the south shore of Lake Ontario, I have put an "*" next to the places where a 7' draft may well be a problem, particularly in fall. Problem meaning getting to fuel/ docks. # indicates you may not even get into the harbor.

Youngstown
# Olcott
Rochester
# Irondequoit Bay
# Pultneyville
* Sodus
# Port Bay
# Fairhaven/ Little Sodus
Oswego
Henderson
Sacketts Harbor
Chamont (needs more info on fuel)
* Cape Vincent
* Clayton
* Alex Bay

Swinging back on the North Shore (and I'll ask our northern neighbors to pitch in)

Gananaque
Kingston
* Prinyer's Cove
# Fisherman's Cove
* Waupoos
* Bay of Quinte (west of Long Reach)
* Picton
* Deseronto
* Bellville ????
Trenton
* Murray Canal ??
* Presqu’ile Bay
Cobourg
* Port Hope
* Newcastle
* Darlington
Whitby
* Bluffers

* Toronto

Chain of Islands "no man's land" not recognized by sailors as belonging to anyone except boaters:

* Galloo
# Main Duck
# False Ducks

Thousand Islands is simple: the less draft, the better. The best anchorages are quite shallow.

[Ardbeg]

OK Mike and Tetepare. I can tell you I sailed Sackets, Clayton ( new docks) and Oswego last Sept no problem. I never sail Bay of Quinte area except maybe June. Re Main Duck, I go there regularly. I do not go into the dock. Too many snapping turtles, flies and nasty snakes. There is a bay just east of the harbor that has a flat 10 feet late in the year. Only bumpy on North wind. As for most other hang outs around eastern Lake Ontario, Pryners, Simcoe, etc. No problem just do not go in as far. Again 1000 Islands, depends where you go. I think of the "40 acres" off Gananoque. Lots of great sailing and bays to tuck into with 7 feet. What I find is if you call in advance, most marinas have some deep slots. Certainly Kingston YC, POH, Bath, etc. I haul out at Bath and they tell us when to come in when water gets skinny. I am certainly not the only 7 footer there. They have dredged their channel in to fuel and pump out so not really a problem. KYC same thing, re access late in year. POH can be a problem after Labour Day.

So for each of us it is a choice of how, where and when we want to sail. I can tell you that I am amazed to be one of the only boats out south of Amherst Island to Main Duck Island at 15 knots wind on a sunny fall day.

[1000 islands]

Originally Posted by hamburking

I'm in Kingston, on Lake Ontario, near the 1000 islands. My last boat had a 5 foot draft and there were places I like that I could not go, and I did my share of bumping on the bottom. A couple of my previous boats needed 4 feet draft, and it made a big difference. In the islands the water is thin. With 7 foot draft you will be limited to pretty much just the main channel. Also, in sailing around the lake, many of the smaller ports and marinas have less than 6 feet.

Given the choice, definitely get the shallow draft. You won't regret it. Better yet, get a swing keel! Exploring off the beaten path is where all the fun is located.

That is why most of us here in the 1000 Islands have a dinghy.

[ctl411]

If he is not going to race deep draft is not much of a advantage. Quick check of rating chart looks like 10 seconds a mile. 50 mile run if both sailed to rating the deep gets there 8-1/2 minutes sooner. But only if hard on the wind. Otherwise most likely arrive at the same time.
True deep draft boats can be lighter and or stiffer this can't be important but so is resale value to some. Again here I think deep draft is not a advantage. Lot more people day sail/cruise vs race. So buy the boat for your application...

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by ardbeg

OK Mike and Tetepare. I can tell you I sailed Sackets, Clayton ( new docks) and Oswego last Sept no problem. .

Note that neither Sacketts nor Oswego have any * or # next to them, indicative of unobstructed access to docks and fuel. See?

Clayton has a * which means it's navigable, but maybe not to get to one or more of: fuel, docks, etc. Can one get to fuel now with a 7' draft in October?

There is a "bay" on Main Duck outside of Schoolhouse Bay. It's actually a scallop. And the bottom is shale with a skim of mud. I don't recommend anyone overnight there unless weather is perfect and they know the island well. I would not recommend a cruiser from another lake try to shelter in that little scallop of shale. Seen enough boats damaged there.

As anyone who has spent time in the area knows, the area from the False Ducks to Henderson to the river entrance can get very hairy. If one had to duck in "now" to seek shelter there are but two bays- Schoolhouse on Main Duck and Gill Harbor on Galloo. Neither approach is for the light hearted. Schoolhouse Bay will typically not accommodate a 7' draft and anchoring in that little scallop on shale isn't secure even if in the lee.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by ardbeg

So for each of us it is a choice of how, where and when we want to sail. I can tell you that I am amazed to be one of the only boats out south of Amherst Island to Main Duck Island at 15 knots wind on a sunny fall day.

Main Duck is an amazing place. Not entirely safe, not that easy to get to. That's part of the allure.

I have never used the docks there. I always anchor in the big cove west of the docks, which usually has plenty of boats, and plenty of room. Close in, protected from the wind is mostly flat rock bottom, with terrible holding unless you dive on your anchor. Sounds like I've been going to the wrong cove. I've had a look at the cove east of the docks, and it looks beautiful...and in my experience is the best spot on the island for cell phone reception. Next time I go, I'm going to anchor there instead...just have to buy another boat first.

FWIW, the swimming at either cove at Main Duck is excellent, maybe the cleanest water on the lake.

Navionics Webapp

[Tetepare]

The dock is in schoolhouse bay. There's good mud in there, the only holding on Main Duck. I rode out a storm there anchored and tied off to a tree.

Outside of that, be wary. A number of boats over the years have tried to ride out storms in that "bay" scallop and wound up on the rocks.

The only problem I've ever heard of in Schoolhouse Bay was a seiche that left it empty for some hours. I didn't experience it, only heard about it.

Gill Harbor on Galloo is an excellent storm hide. Problem is, the bar comes way out and there are two shallow rock shoals on the east side of the old USCG station. There were range markers, I don't know if they're still there. Dicey entrance in stormy conditions when you can't see the bottom or shoals.