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Old 28-08-2018, 19:19   #1
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Which rule takes precedence

Paraphrasing, a vessel overtaking another vessel must keep clear of the overtaken vessel; and power vessels must keep clear of sailing vessels. Assuming open Waters and no other obstructions.
But if a sail vessel is overtaking a power vessel which is the give way vessel and which is the stand on vessel?
I think the sail boat trumps because of the general hierarchy but I'm not completely certain.
Comment or thought?
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Old 28-08-2018, 19:32   #2
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

I will be interested to see how this plays out.

My guess.......

I would expect the boat being overtaken is stand on and the boat overtaking is the give way, and in the event of a collision the boat doing the overtaking would be found more at fault because they are doing and because they have a better view of the event.

Irrespective of if they are a sailing vessel or not.
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Old 28-08-2018, 19:34   #3
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimJohnston View Post
Paraphrasing, a vessel overtaking another vessel must keep clear of the overtaken vessel; and power vessels must keep clear of sailing vessels. Assuming open Waters and no other obstructions.
But if a sail vessel is overtaking a power vessel which is the give way vessel and which is the stand on vessel?
I think the sail boat trumps because of the general hierarchy but I'm not completely certain.
Comment or thought?

Under COLREGs Rule 13, an overtaking sail vessel must give way to an overtaken vessel, regardless of of what type of vessel it is overtaking

"Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. "

And Rule 18, governing who keeps out of the way of whom (which you describe as the general hierarchy) makes this clear:
"Except where Rules 9,10 and 13 otherwise require:..."
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Old 28-08-2018, 19:38   #4
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

Colregs rule 13 essentially says that the overtaking boat must keep clear, regardless of whether it is under sail or power.

—INTERNATIONAL—
Steering and Sailing Rules
RULE 13
Overtaking
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I
and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the
vessel being overtaken.
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with
another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that
is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at
night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither
of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she if overtaking another,
she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly. (d) Any
subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not
make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these
Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until
she is finally past and clear.
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Old 28-08-2018, 19:49   #5
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

StuM got it right!

The only time a sailboat gives way to a powerboat (1) is when the sailboat is overtaking.

(1) Assumes power vessel is not NUC, Restricted, CBD or using fishing gear.
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Old 28-08-2018, 21:07   #6
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
StuM got it right!

The only time a sailboat gives way to a powerboat (1) is when the sailboat is overtaking.

(1) Assumes power vessel is not NUC, Restricted, CBD or using fishing gear.

One of the above is not like the other three.


"Any vessel...... shall, if the circumstances of the case admit,
avoid impeding the passage of....."
is not the same "give way"
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Old 28-08-2018, 21:33   #7
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

Quote:
Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that
is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at
night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither
of her sidelights.

So when the overtaking vessel is exactly at 22.5 degrees aft of the beam, or if the course through the waves constantly fluxuates greater and less than 22.5 degrees.

In this case it is unclear which vessel has right of way.
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Old 28-08-2018, 21:50   #8
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

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So when the overtaking vessel is exactly at 22.5 degrees aft of the beam, or if the course through the waves constantly fluxuates greater and less than 22.5 degrees.

In this case it is unclear which vessel has right of way.
It is NEVER unclear under the ColRegs.

If you even think you MIGHT be overtaking, then you MUST assume that you are and behave accordingly, which means keep clear of the vessel ahead.

Seems very clear to me.
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Old 28-08-2018, 21:58   #9
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

It really bugs me that sailboaters expect all others to take initial action to avoid them in all situations. If a sailboat is overtaking a motorboat, the sailboat is required to take initial action to avoid the motorboat. In most other situations, the sailboat is required to maintain course so the less privileged boat can take corrective action unless collision is nearly imminent.
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Old 28-08-2018, 23:05   #10
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
So when the overtaking vessel is exactly at 22.5 degrees aft of the beam, or if the course through the waves constantly fluxuates greater and less than 22.5 degrees.

In this case it is unclear which vessel has right of way.
No, it's perfectly clear:

Physically, if exactly 22.5į then not overtaking.
"...from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam... "

However, who could measure to that degree of accuracy. More to the point is that if there is any doubt, you have to assume that you are overtaking and take action accordingy. If it is fluctuating greater and less -your vessel remains the "overtaking vessel" until it is past and clear.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
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Old 28-08-2018, 23:10   #11
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
It really bugs me that sailboaters expect all others to take initial action to avoid them in all situations.
That's a very sweeping statement which in my experience is inaccurate in the extreme.

I generally find that your average sailor is far more familiar with "the rules" than your average powerboater. Possibly because a higher percentage of sailors actually receive training in seamanship.
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Old 28-08-2018, 23:17   #12
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

Sorry, Stu. I should have said "errant sailors."
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Old 28-08-2018, 23:28   #13
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
...

I generally find that your average sailor is far more familiar with "the rules" than your average powerboater. Possibly because a higher percentage of sailors actually receive training in seamanship.
That's not my experience with medium and large-sized motorboats. Have a slightly larger negative experience with sailboaters, however. Nevertheless, 99% of the time it is copacetic.

What's your basis that sailboaters receive more seamanship training? Learning the mechanics how to sail does not include Colregs.
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Old 28-08-2018, 23:38   #14
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

Hmm...IMO it seems the faster the boat, the lower the knowledge.
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Old 28-08-2018, 23:42   #15
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Re: Which rule takes precedence

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Hmm...IMO it seems the faster the boat, the lower the knowledge.
I cruise at six knots.
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