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Old 09-12-2024, 04:08   #16
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

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As to admission for entry by the Swedish citizen upon arrival to a US port by private yacht, the Swede will need to have a B1 / B2 visa issued by the US State Department BEFORE arrival to the USA. No visa, no admittance to the USA.

Entry by private yacht requires B1 / B2 visas and is not subject to the typical ESTA or visa waiver program of arrival by common carrier airlines or cruise ships.

The Swede should apply for the B1 / B2 non-immigrant visa at the USA embassy in Stockholm, Sweden.

A B1 / B2 visa is NOT applied for or granted from within the USA or upon arrival. It is to be processed in the country of the applicant's citizenship or permanent residence. Obtain one before boarding your boat for the voyage to the USA, or the US territories, USVI, Puerto Rico.

The wait time for an appointment at the US Embassy is Sweden is exceptionally short compared to other countries, presently only 21 business days. It will take additional time to have the visa approval process to be completed after the interview appointment. Some countries the wait time is over a year or even more than two years to obtain the appointed interview.

Obtain the visa well before departure to the USA so that one does not need to return to Sweden to obtain the visa before arriving in the USA.

The Swede will be subject to the normal length of stay criteria of the issued temporary stay visa.

A B-1 / B-2 visa is a non-immigrant visa that allows foreign nationals to travel to the United States temporarily for business (B-1), tourism (B-2), or a mix of both (B1/B2). This visa category is widely used for brief visits to the U.S. B visas are typically valid for up to 10 years from the issue date, and travelers to the U.S. can stay up to 180 days, with the option to return to the U.S. again after that time.

A maximum of 6 months may be obtained for any B-1 / B-2 entry, with the possibility for extensions within the U.S. in qualifying cases. The exact duration varies per visa holder. Sometimes B1 / B2 visas are issued with shorter than 180 permitted duration of stay, subject to the discretion of the US State Department personnel.

The B1 / B2 visa is a multiple-entry visa, which means you can use it to enter the U.S. more than once. There’s no set limit to the number of times you can visit the U.S. in a year, and it depends on the specific circumstances and discretion of the CBP officers who review your case each time you enter.
One may be denied reentry particularly if the reentry is a short period of time from one's departure. The reentry allowance loophole is subject to curtailment and is never assured, but residents of Sweden are not considered to be persons that will be likely to overstay their visas, so one can have confidence that if you leave within the visa requirements and then return after a reasonable period of time elsewhere or back in Sweden that you will be well received and welcome back to the States.

It’s important to remember that the B1 / B2 visa is intended for temporary, occasional visits for business, tourism, or medical treatment. It’s not meant to be used for living long-term in the U.S. or spending the majority of your time in the country.


Depending on the type of nonimmigrant visa you have, you may be able to extend your stay in the U.S. Learn if you qualify and how to file for an extension.
https://www.usa.gov/extend-visa

How to extend your B2 tourist visa
If you are visiting the U.S. as a tourist with a B-2 visa, you may file for an extension with Form I-539. You must also:

Include your original Form I-94, which is the record of your arrival and departure dates
Explain:
The reason for your request
Why your extended stay would be temporary
What arrangements you have made to depart the U.S.
What effect your extended stay may have on your employment and residency in your home country
How to extend other nonimmigrant visas
Not all nonimmigrant visa categories are eligible for an extension.

https://www.uscis.gov/visit-the-unit...tend-your-stay

A request for an extension of stay (EOS) is generally filed on a Petition for a Nonimmigrant Worker (Form I-129) or Application to Extend/Change Nonimmigrant Status (Form I-539), depending upon the nonimmigrant classification the petitioner or applicant seeks to extend. The instructions for Form I-539 and Form I-129 provide detailed information regarding who may file each form. Supplemental Information for Application to Extend/Change Nonimmigrant Status (Form I-539A) or Petition for a CNMI-Only Nonimmigrant Transitional Worker (Form I-129CW) may also be filed, where applicable. If you remain in the United States longer than authorized, you may be barred from returning and/or you may be removed (deported) from the United States. Check the date in the lower right-hand corner of your Form I-94, Arrival-Departure Record, to determine the date your authorized stay expires. We recommend that you apply to extend your stay at least 45 days before your authorized stay expires.

You may apply to extend your stay if:

You were lawfully admitted into the United States with a nonimmigrant visa;
Your nonimmigrant visa status remains valid;
You have not committed any crimes that make you ineligible for a visa;
You have not violated the conditions of your admission; and
Your passport is valid and will remain valid for the duration of your stay.
You may not apply to extend your stay if you were admitted to the United States in the following categories:

Visa Waiver Program;
Crew member (D nonimmigrant visa);
In transit through the United States (C nonimmigrant visa);
In transit through the United States without a visa (TWOV);
Fiancé(e) of a U.S. citizen or dependent of a fiancé(e) (K nonimmigrant visa); or
Informant (and accompanying family) on terrorism or organized crime (S nonimmigrant visa).

Be sure that your passport is not subject to expiration within 6 months of arrival to the USA. Renew your passport so that it has many years of validity and your visa is honored and not shortened.
While not in keeping with the OP's question - there are some further points to the above very comprehensive answer.

1- The CPB officer you meet when you enter, can, at his/her discretion, allow entry for up to 1 year. Typically, a cruiser can get this if they note that they are going to be sailing in US waters for an extended period of time. We have gotten the 1 year entry on our B1/B2 several times.

2- If you apply for an extension (we have several times due to covid) the time necessary to get the approval/denial is frequently up to a couple of years. No need to fret. Immigration will send you a case number when your application is recorded as received. Once you have that number, you are golden - you are not illegally in the US even though your original visa time ahs expired.

Both times we applied for an extension, the extension was granted after the length of the extension we sought
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Old 09-12-2024, 04:46   #17
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

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You may want to check into how the flag might impact availability or cost of insurance.

finding insurance for older or more unusual boats is becoming very difficult so accounting for the potential of insurance TAX is a good point. Poland and Sweden are exempt but in other eu countries it can be up to 33%.


Other registration issues that should be considered. If the vessel is not in joint names and the "owner" becomes incapacitated (or worse case dies) then it can be very difficult for their partner to even sail the vessel out of a port without legal help of POA's in place. Last thing you want to be dealing with in an already stressful situation.
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Old 09-12-2024, 15:27   #18
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

Apparently European insurance companies don't like to insure boats that are owned by US citizens.

We were thinking of registering Persévérance in Sweden because the Swedish Cruising Association (40,000 members) has a sweet deal with the Swedish government that allows them to register their member's boats under a Swedish flag.

https://sxk.se/

https://sxk.se/english

Another hurdle is that Persévérance is cold molded, meaning wood & epoxy. Most US insurers shy away from wooden boats.

Anybody know of an insurance company that would insure a wooden boat with a Swedish and a US co-owner?

About to throw in the towel and just document it here with the USCG and insure it with StateFarm.
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Old 09-12-2024, 16:30   #19
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

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Originally Posted by svPersévérance View Post
Apparently European insurance companies don't like to insure boats that are owned by US citizens.

We were thinking of registering Persévérance in Sweden because the Swedish Cruising Association (40,000 members) has a sweet deal with the Swedish government that allows them to register their member's boats under a Swedish flag.

https://sxk.se/

https://sxk.se/english

Another hurdle is that Persévérance is cold molded, meaning wood & epoxy. Most US insurers shy away from wooden boats.

Anybody know of an insurance company that would insure a wooden boat with a Swedish and a US co-owner?

About to throw in the towel and just document it here with the USCG and insure it with StateFarm.
The International Certificate does not provide nationality to the vessel. It is not a Swedish vessel and is not permitted to wear the country's flag. It is a document of minimal value or credit but apparently is useful for inland waterway transits in Europe.
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Old 09-12-2024, 17:04   #20
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

Elegant vessel. It has a LOT of sails, so a bit of challenge to operate.

Albeit a large wood yacht may be a challenge to obtain insurance being out of the norm these days.

Copied from another vessel sale data:

Shpountz model 44-40 is built in the modern cold molded monoblock construction technique incorporating laminated oak frames, strip planked Oregon white pine, with three outer layers of mahogany and west African Iroko. This makes for a strong but relatively light weight structure
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Old 09-12-2024, 17:20   #21
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

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Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
The International Certificate does not provide nationality to the vessel. It is not a Swedish vessel and is not permitted to wear the country's flag. It is a document of minimal value or credit but apparently is useful for inland waterway transits in Europe.
I don't think that is correct. People often do buy a foreign made boat and register it in a country and are authorized to fly the flag of that country.
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Old 09-12-2024, 17:54   #22
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

FYI:

"The issuance of an international certificate for pleasure craft [ICP] means that ownership had been made probable at the time of issuance. The Swedish Cruising Association only issues certificates to private individuals living in Europe and their own privately owned pleasure boats. No intermediaries are accepted.

In Sweden in order to get an international certificate you have to be a member of Swedish Cruising Association. In other countries there are other private organizations authorized to issue ICP's.

To be sure that the ownership has been rendered credible only copy of original documents in Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish and English is accepted. If you have documents of other origin please address your application to authorised bodies in other EU countries. You have to supply the Bill of Sale.

The ICP is not a titling nor does it provide for perfection of liens.


Registration in a club register such as that of the Swedish Cruising Association does not confer any right to carry the Swedish flag. However, under the Maritime Code chapter 2 section 1(2) vessels of 12 m length and 4 m breadth or more ("ships") may obtain official Swedish registry in accordance with EU rules.



Within Europe, on the other hand, it is mandatory in almost all countries to have an official registration certificate. The ICP was created for the above reasons.

In Europe, agreements have been made with a large number of countries about the validity of the ICP on European inland and coastal waters. In these countries, a valid ICP is accepted at all times as an unofficial proof of ownership for your pleasure craft.

Please note: An ICP is explicitly not proof of nationality and registration, like the sea certificate, and does not give the right to fly the nation's flag.

In which European countries is the ICP valid?
Austria
Belgium
Croatia
Czech Republic
France*
Germany
Hungary
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Romania
Serbia
Slovakia
Sweden
United Kingdom
*Please note: Some countries apply the ICP partially or have specific conditions when applying. You can find this on the website of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) in this document. This is Resolution 13. The information on France can be found on page 8 note 30.



How can I sail in European countries that do not accept the ICP?
Sailing in countries that do not officially accept the ICP, but where the use of the ICP did not previously lead to problems, is entirely at your own risk.

If you are arrested by foreign authorities for (an accusation of) unlawful use of the ICP
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Old 09-12-2024, 19:17   #23
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

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Originally Posted by svPersévérance View Post
I don't think that is correct. People often do buy a foreign made boat and register it in a country and are authorized to fly the flag of that country.

I might be wrong about this.




sigh... probably easier to register it with the USCG and insure it in the US.


Thank you all!!!!
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Old 09-12-2024, 19:23   #24
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

The ICP is not a national registration, it is a pseudo-official document for use in inland waterways and coastal cruising in some European countries. It is not a flagging of the vessel for international waters.

It has limited usefulness as it does not convey title, it is only a statement that ownership was probably confirmed at the time of issuance by having someone review copies of original documents such as bill of sales.

The ICP is not worthless, it is just of very limited purpose and benefit or limited reliance as to factual ownership.

Yes, people flag their vessels in countries that they have a link with, or with pen flagging countries.
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Old 10-12-2024, 03:09   #25
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

Have you thought about Red Ensign Group - Category 2 registry under company name. Given your circumstances this might be an option although it would require a tonnage survey.



https://www.redensigngroup.org/about...-ensign-group/
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Old 10-12-2024, 13:28   #26
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

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...
Another hurdle is that Persévérance is cold molded, meaning wood & epoxy. Most US insurers shy away from wooden boats.

Anybody know of an insurance company that would insure a wooden boat with a Swedish and a US co-owner?

About to throw in the towel and just document it here with the USCG and insure it with StateFarm.
Ask the owners on the RAN YouTube channel. They are Swedish citizens and are building cold molded boat. Hopefully, they looked into insurance before starting their build.

https://www.youtube.com/c/RANSailing
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Old 13-12-2024, 14:00   #27
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

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I didn't know that the duty will become payable when we get back to the US.
The 1.5% is due on the value at the time of import, so unless you're planning a major refit, it will be on lesser value than what you're buying the boat for.

We've recently gone through a similar decision process. The USCG process is simple. The steps are straight forward, and if you call their 800 number they'll provide guidance and assistance. Few hundred $$ for 5-year no hassle registration.

We did hear much feedback about challenges getting insurance for US-flagged boats. In our case, putting together a detailed resume of our experiences was vital. Certifications are helpful too. Starting in Europe / Med which is a well-known and well-insured area helps too. We worked with a French insurance broker that is well-versed with foreign-flagged boats. PM me if you need a referral, as we went through several.
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Old 13-12-2024, 19:36   #28
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

Poland is becoming more popular , even in places like Singapore
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Old 16-12-2024, 11:39   #29
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

There are, anecdotally mostly, an increasing number of irritations for boats flying the Polish flag when cruising in EU waters. This seems to stem from the Polish registry being fairly 'relaxed' about various EU rules.

It isn't (or at least wasn't) necessary to have a Polish address in order to register a boat as Polish. Although I'm not aware of any actual advantages of doing so, it allowed one to 'appear' to be an EU boat and hence attract less bureaucratic attention from officials - useful for many British cruisers post Brexit.

For some specific irritations see here: https://www.noonsite.com/news/greece...h-flag-yachts/
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Old 17-12-2024, 13:52   #30
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Re: What flag to fly? We're buying a schooner in France

So, US citizen here aboard my Polish-flagged boat in Italy. Insurance was my biggest issue. Everyone I contacted in the US didn't want to insure my 1991 catamaran in European waters. Boat age was a factor, being outside of US waters or the Bahamas was a factor. Polish registration was easy, didn't require a survey, and allowed me to insure the boat in Europe, which allows sailing in the Med and having access to marinas. In talking with European insurance companies, it seemed that they didn't want to register a US flagged boat. They didn't seem to care that we're Americans. Along with that comes Schengen. Most authorities don't care about us being an EU flagged vessel sailing in their waters. We haven't been inspected by any CG vessels yet, but I've heard usually if you send up the little pirates topsides you are less likely to be bothered, and they usually mainly want to see proof of VAT paid (so we've heard in the cruising channels). Keep in mind if you leave the boat a certain amount of time in the EU as a foreign vessel, then they can charge you VAT as well (I think it's 18 months). I tried to check in in Italy, after changing plans from leaving Spain to sail to Morocco led to more coastal sailing. We contacted an agent who told us being EU flagged wouldn't be a problem for us; a self-made and stamped crew list is good enough documentation. Those are just the things we've encountered that might be useful, and we've moved aboard and have been in the Med since July.

I would look into insurance first and talk to some agents from different companies in the US and abroad to get a better idea. You might only have a few options. The marina the boat was in when we purchased it were okay waiting for insurance to be sorted out when we became the new owners. It helped that the old owner had coverage through the month for us.

I forgot to add: good looking boat! Enjoy the sailing!
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