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Old 14-04-2020, 11:20   #16
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

Good sinking!

Well done., and hopefully Venezuela learned something about attempted piracy.

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Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
The Venezuelans have a different view of what happened...

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/upl...59bc866465.png

They also claim that the cruise ship left the scene without assisting in any rescue efforts, though Resolute apparently followed instructions they got from Curaçao rescue operations and stuck around for an hour before being told to proceed, since the Venezuelans were apparently handling it.

The location of the sunken patrol boat would be a good indication of whether this was in International waters or not.

Why on earth would you endanger your ship and crew doing that?!

Bringing armed pirates on your boat? Heck no

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richv View Post
Are civilian vessels legally obligated to extend rescue efforts to armed attackers? If some armed idiot rams my boat, I'll just notify the local authorities via radio and get the Dodge out of Hell.
If it was a armed ship they tried to attack, I would have expected a different reaction, and it wouldn’t have involved the word “rescue”.

“Never leave an enemy behind, or it will rise again to fly at your throat”
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Old 14-04-2020, 15:11   #17
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

Didn't the Venuzelan navy have a problem with the British navy a few years ago?
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Old 14-04-2020, 18:50   #18
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

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Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post
I doubt they thought about the cruise ship being ice-reinforced before ramming it - if indeed it was deliberate. Ramming is an age-old navy tactic. Usually bows are stronger than other parts of ships, sides for example, and the rammer usually wins. Not in this case!
If you read the Portuguese report http://www.gama.mm.gov.pt/images/Rel...S_RESOLUTE.pdf you will see that the navy ship did not ram the RCGS Resolute.... she simply managed to lay herself across the bow of RCGS Resolute... very much the same 'angle of attack' as we saw with the USS McCain. Refer page 13 of the report for a couple of piccies...

What is unknown is why this happened... deliberate course alteration or interaction between the two ships..

https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Shallow_Water

Much is being made of the fact that RCGS Resolute was 'ice strengthened'...
but an 'ice breaker' she is not. In her case the level of ice strengthening most probably simply involved heavier shell plating frd along with closer frame spacing.... and an ice knife above the rudder.
The outcome if she had indeed been rammed would have been no different to any other similar size of ship.
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Old 14-04-2020, 20:39   #19
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

Saw this a week or so ago. The ship was refuelling in Curacao. Protests were made by the Venezuelans to the authorities in Curacao and in Amsterdam. these were apparently ignored.
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Old 20-04-2020, 08:03   #20
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

Man, If I'm Wilfried Köhnemann (the designer), I'm splashing this ALL OVER the ship design industry. What a great PR topic!
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Old 20-04-2020, 09:48   #21
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

I have sailed to all of those islands. And spent a fair amount of time in Venezuela as a cruiser. I watched this country go down the tubes. It use to be the premier country of South America. However. The use of the term Socialist or socialism is inaccurate. A socialist country would be Norway, Denmark, Sweden Etc.
Venezuela is not socialist. The government is not there for anything but itself. It is a dictatorship. Everything for me, and let the people rot! That is not socialism. Maduro and his predecessor have destroyed the country.
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Old 20-04-2020, 10:41   #22
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

I think a few of those countries have gone on record to denounce being socialist.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/sweden-isnt-socialist/
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Old 20-04-2020, 17:04   #23
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

"Although the Portuguese authorities have not obtained statements from Venezuela, the report discusses the possibility that the unexpected change in Naiguatá's heading just before the collision, as reported by RCGS Resolute, may have been caused by a suction effect between the vessels as the faster patrol boat passed the bow of the cruise ship. Although the collision may have not been intentional ramming, the conclusion was nonetheless that the incident that led to the sinking of Naiguatá was a deliberate act initiated by the Venezuelan Navy rather than an accidental occurrence.[35]"

35a,b,c,d,e. "Relatório de Investigação Técnica / Investigation report" (PDF) (in Portuguese). Gabinete de Investigação de Acidentes Marítimos e da Autoridade para a Meteorologia Aeronáutica (GAMA). 6 April 2020. Retrieved 10 April 2020.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCGS_Resolute
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Old 20-04-2020, 23:33   #24
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

Show off force, ending unexpectedly.

Veni Vidi nec Vici
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Old 21-04-2020, 20:08   #25
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

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Originally Posted by DanCan View Post
..... This leftist communist socialist garbage still around in 2020.

Just so we're all totally clear on ths point - "leftist socialist garbage" is PRECISELY what governements of all colours and stripes are doing all over the world, propping up businesses and the economy, paying wages to workers...etc etc

The "market" would see everyone and everything fail, as happened in 1929/30, before Keynes got in the ear of of Roosevelt and convinced him to bring on 'The New Deal'.

Only problem was, it was already too late, and it was only WWII that saved the American economy in the end. But I digress...

So, just because a conservative govt (UK, Australia) implements such policies, it doesn't stop them being so-called "Left Wing policies".

There is good on both "sides" but sometimes it takes a "situation" before that becomes self-evident to the wider public, never mind the "Right Wing media and lobbyists".

I've always found it amusing that 'right wing businesses' are first to head for the govt's door, cap in hand, when anything untoward occurs.

Tends to demonstrate that the so-called "political divisions" are as much confected rage as actual dogma or policy.

In other words, "it's all about power, stupid"!
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Old 21-04-2020, 20:56   #26
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

I get socialism, but tropical communism like Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua is unfortunately tied to narco traffic. I have family also in Nicaragua, anybody who claim how great these countries are doing, please let me invite you to spend just a week there. When you come back home, you will find yourself loving your country; that is if you can come back as the crime, poverty, and abuse is off the charts. Please don’t compare European socialism with Latinamerican communism.
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Old 21-04-2020, 21:08   #27
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

I'm not. No contest.

It's the underlying bias against **anything** that is "Left" or "liberal" from those on the Right to which I was referring.

Basically, my thesis is - "dogma doesn't work. What is appropriate for all is what works"

As we are, thankfully, seeing in most places affected by COVID-19.

Sure, degree, and detail, differ, but overall, govts of all persuasions seem to have thrown away the dogma.

This is how "democracy" is actually **supposed** to work.

The real problem is the two-party system - in fact, the party system period - in which holding on to power becomes the end game, and NOT "serving the people" as it should be.

There was some talk here that Morrison would not be able to 'walk back' from some of the things he "stated" earlier on, but he seems to have done so, efficiently and without the 'other side' hammering him for it or trying to score points off it.

Even the current stoush over the degree to which 'casual workers' are being left out, and over the govt's refusal to in any way bailout Virgin Australia airline, is being couched in non-partisan terms (largely).

Labor (Left) is - predictably - siding with the employees and calling for some sort of assurance that those jobs will be subsidised, or the airline offered some relief by govt.

Problem is, all the relief govt once upon a time could have offered, like relief from landing fees, terminal rents, etc, has been taken off the table when the airports were privatised and sold off years ago. [That's my Left-bias talking].

Others, such as Gigi Foster (hardline economist) suggest the govt needs to start a regular bank so it can offer transfer payments direct to employees (citizens), and thus make the funds transfers immediate, without all the mucking around of the systems currently in place. But the Fed gov sold off the Commonwealth Bank years ago.... [My Left bias talking].

Hopefully, the administrators will enable Virgin to 'trade out' (like US Section 11) and the jobs and the business will continue.

But it's interesting, as a polly-watcher, to see the changes over the past few weeks.... As Confucious probably never said: "We live in interesting times".

Friends and I are taking bets as to how long it will last before the 'slanging match' resumes.
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Old 21-04-2020, 22:55   #28
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

For me, this site is to read and learn more about boating, cruising and articles affecting boating life.

I am dismayd at people calling other people "stupid" here, just because there is a difference in view.

Is it possible that we could minimize political and other reference not associated with boating please!?

It is boring to read it and I know there are sufficient other political forums more apt for such posts/opinions/arguments.

For me, I wish to engage in other's boating life that can enrich my boating experience.

Thus please pardon my "non-boat" interjection.

Happy boating all!!
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Old 21-04-2020, 23:07   #29
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernMac View Post
I think a few of those countries have gone on record to denounce being socialist.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/sweden-isnt-socialist/

I think this is a reaction to the unpopularity of 'socialism'. I'd have to believe it's one of the most misunderstood and misused terms in circulation today.


Those countries are social democracies. A form of socialism. Not all socialism is bad and we'd all do well to understand the differences.
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Old 22-04-2020, 04:54   #30
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Re: Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
Just so we're all totally clear on ths point - "leftist socialist garbage" is PRECISELY what governements of all colours and stripes are doing all over the world, propping up businesses and the economy, paying wages to workers...etc etc

The "market" would see everyone and everything fail, as happened in 1929/30, before Keynes got in the ear of of Roosevelt and convinced him to bring on 'The New Deal'.

Only problem was, it was already too late, and it was only WWII that saved the American economy in the end. But I digress...

So, just because a conservative govt (UK, Australia) implements such policies, it doesn't stop them being so-called "Left Wing policies".

There is good on both "sides" but sometimes it takes a "situation" before that becomes self-evident to the wider public, never mind the "Right Wing media and lobbyists".

I've always found it amusing that 'right wing businesses' are first to head for the govt's door, cap in hand, when anything untoward occurs.

Tends to demonstrate that the so-called "political divisions" are as much confected rage as actual dogma or policy.

In other words, "it's all about power, stupid"!


Fair enough. I live in a country that could be loosely identified as a “social democracy” although for some of my fellow Americans this is just a socialist country.
Social responsibility is a real thing (in my opinion) in today’s governments, I get that and I do not oppose. But we all pay taxes for that, and heavy indeed.
Does the “government” care about us, regular, common citizens? Hmm.... many democratic governments are in fact closer to old oligarchies than “we the people”. I get that. That’s why many new generations are becoming so disenchanted with out political system.
What I am opposed to (and I hope most of us if not all) is to this narco-communist socialist garbage whether is Venezuela, Cuba, China or North Korea, each as corrupt, totalitarian and suppressive although in different colours and smells.
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