USCG Exam Rules of the Road Trick Questions

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The real CG question would likely use "vessel engaged in fishing." A practice test might use "fishing vessel." I don't recall seeing a real question where they said "fishing vessel" baiting a wrong answer, not saying there aren't any. That would indeed be a trick question. I don't think they're intentionally being tricky, they just insist on you using the correct language.

This is my point. If we're going by the Colreg's and the scope of the discussion is around the preciseness of the verbiage, then "Fishing Vessel" is nothing more than a Post or a Viking anchored having cocktails. However a "Vessel Engaged in Fishing" is actually fishing. Each would use a very different sound signal in fog. The OP then states that "Fishing Vessel" is actually a vessel engaged in fishing.

Hence why I'm asking the validity of the question. Because the answer provided by the OP would be based on "Vessel Engaged in Fishing" not a "Fishing Vessel", and the Colreg's make a point to define the verbiage in Rule 3.

IMHO the OP is contradicting himself in that example, which is why I'm asking if these are legitimate questions, or is he making them up for discussion points and this is yet another very poorly worded example? It can't be both ways.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I should have said "again!" But really look at it this time.

What do you think, is he still in the room, or am I being to lenient

[StuM]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The real CG question would likely use "vessel engaged in fishing." A practice test might use "fishing vessel."

Are you telling us that your school's practice questions bear little resemblance to the real exam and are full of imprecise and misleading language?


I'd be looking for a different school to send people to.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

Reduce speed to bare steerageway and be prepared to stop the vessel.

My question: on the oral exams, do they insist you use the exact language used in the Rules or is any language that sufficiently explains the actions sufficient? That would make it more "real world."

Not really, a good DOT Examiner will phrase the question in the exact language so it is easy to reply with that language.

The key is to relax, ask for clarification if not sure!
... whatever you do,...
dont guess, just say you can't remember and will get back to him with the correct answer

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The real CG question would likely use "vessel engaged in fishing." A practice test might use "fishing vessel." I don't recall seeing a real question where they said "fishing vessel" baiting a wrong answer, not saying there aren't any. That would indeed be a trick question. I don't think they're intentionally being tricky, they just insist on you using the correct language.

This is a weakness if the USCG system which is still a carryover from post WW2 days.

The US needed lots if commercial mariners , so they dumbed down the training, had you memorize answers to given questions, without really understanding the subject.

Hence the reliance on multiple choice rather than written answers and detail orals

As a result, many piss poor watchkeepers got their licences .

Basically what still happens in 3rd world training today .
I would say UK and N Europe have the best standards in training and cadet ship oportunities

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, if they are being all that picky about wording, why do they use the word "prolong" rather than "prolonged" when describing the duration of the signal?
Jim

I’m with Jim here, and I didn’t see an answer to his question. A test author who writes such a smarmy English language trap had better not accidentally use a verb instead of an adjective within the trap itself. When that happens the joke is on him, and the test is no more valid than the protest sign held by the man in the infamous picture: “Get a BRAIN! Morans”

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

What do you think, is he still in the room, or am I being to lenient

Don’t be cruel, this is not an easy answer as without knowing the ranges of the rings, whether the situation is 19 d or e. D is implied as the contact came from the edge of the screen and without knowing the number and ranges of the rings we can’t be sure that the situation at 3 rings in is close quarters.

D says take avoiding action in ample time before close quarters situation develops, avoiding turning to port when target ahead and not towards when target abeam or behind. That means to first make a large turn to starboard. Given the relative angles I expect to turn at least 180 degrees.

E says if close quarters then slow to minimum steerage way, prepare to stop or manoeuvre. Not the first thing to do unless we are sure we’re in a close quarters situation.

I’m not a professional, so if I’m wrong please explain.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, if they are being all that picky about wording, why do they use the word "prolong" rather than "prolonged" when describing the duration of the signal?

Jim

Jim, I am anything but a pedantic grammarian[emoji57]...but COLREGS uses "prolonged"

I only use prolong in conjunction with Viagra[emoji16]

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Don’t be cruel, this is not an easy answer as without knowing the ranges of the rings, whether the situation is 19 d or e. D is implied as the contact came from the edge of the screen and without knowing the number and ranges of the rings we can’t be sure that the situation at 3 rings in is close quarters.

D says take avoiding action in ample time before close quarters situation develops, avoiding turning to port when target ahead and not towards when target abeam or behind. That means to first make a large turn to starboard. Given the relative angles I expect to turn at least 180 degrees.

E says if close quarters then slow to minimum steerage way, prepare to stop or manoeuvre. Not the first thing to do unless we are sure we’re in a close quarters situation.

I’m not a professional, so if I’m wrong please explain.

It’s not a trick question.
The examiner was not trying to trick the candidate. (Me)
It’s one of very few exam questions I can remember, it should have been easy. I remember it because I nearly failed.
The examiner wasn’t trying to fail me.
I quoted the complete rule to him several times and stuck to my answer.
Which annoyed him,
I can’t recall his exact words.
“You can quote the rule like a parrot” is close enough. While this hurt my feelings to some extent.
I got the point he wasn’t interested in my ability to quote the rules. He wanted to see if I understood the rules and could give a reasoned answer based on the rules.

I needed to explain why, I was going to take the particular action I intended.

It took me a very long twenty minutes to figure it out.

So certainly for me it was not an easy question to answer.

Your about where I was.

I had given him a safe answer without explaining why, he didn’t want a short cut he wanted a detailed explanation of how and why I decided to take the action.

I will wait and see if you guys can figure it out. Before I post my final answer.

Your recommend action is safe. You are doing ok, you just have to explain why you choose to alter 180 to starboard.
How and why?

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

Reduce to bare stearageway is required any time a vessel is detected forward of the beam in restricted visibility. Going beyond that, alter course to starboard for a port to port passing.

This unfortunately contains an error in principle. Which would probably have sealed your fate.
But don’t give up.

Your first answer was safe,

Think about the possible outcome, would altering to starboard after having reduced speed be safe?

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

Gives more time to react. Should a collision occur it won't be as severe, but that's probably not the answer they want. And it's in the rules so you have to do it.

Rule 19 (e) Except where it has been determined that a risk of collision does not
exist, every vessel which hears apparently forward of her beam the fog
signal of another vessel, or which cannot avoid a close-quarters situation
with another vessel forward of her beam, shall reduce her speed to the
minimum at which she can be kept on her course. She shall if necessary
take all her way off and in any event navigate with extreme caution until
danger of collision is over.

and
Rule 19(b) Every vessel shall proceed at a safe speed adapted to the prevailing
circumstances and conditions of restricted visibility. A power-driven vessel
shall have her engines ready for immediate maneuver.
If it's really thick, that would be bare steerageway. Are you allowed to ask qualifying questions like how thick is the fog?

Alter course to stbd:
Rule 19 (d) A vessel which detects by radar alone the presence of another vessel
shall determine if a close-quarters situation is developing and/or risk of
collision exists. If so, she shall take avoiding action in ample time, provided
that when such action consists of an alteration of course, so far as possible
the following shall be avoided:
(i) an alteration of course to port for a vessel forward of the beam, other
than for a vessel being overtaken;
(ii) an alteration of course towards a vessel abeam or abaft the beam.

Your right, it will make the collision less severe is probably not what he is looking for.

Well I quoted the rule. it didn’t help.

It is a real world question,
The examiner is just looking for a real world practical answer with the reasons why.

Correct terminology and phrasing will certainly help.

A clue, which rules apply,

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

Gives more time to react. Should a collision occur it won't be as severe, but that's probably not the answer they want. And it's in the rules so you have to do it.

Rule 19 (e) Except where it has been determined that a risk of collision does not
exist, every vessel which hears apparently forward of her beam the fog
signal of another vessel, or which cannot avoid a close-quarters situation
with another vessel forward of her beam, shall reduce her speed to the
minimum at which she can be kept on her course. She shall if necessary
take all her way off and in any event navigate with extreme caution until
danger of collision is over.

and
Rule 19(b) Every vessel shall proceed at a safe speed adapted to the prevailing
circumstances and conditions of restricted visibility. A power-driven vessel
shall have her engines ready for immediate maneuver.
If it's really thick, that would be bare steerageway. Are you allowed to ask qualifying questions like how thick is the fog?

Alter course to stbd:
Rule 19 (d) A vessel which detects by radar alone the presence of another vessel
shall determine if a close-quarters situation is developing and/or risk of
collision exists. If so, she shall take avoiding action in ample time, provided
that when such action consists of an alteration of course, so far as possible
the following shall be avoided:
(i) an alteration of course to port for a vessel forward of the beam, other
than for a vessel being overtaken;
(ii) an alteration of course towards a vessel abeam or abaft the beam.

Another clue.
Remember basic exam techniques, only answer the question asked.
The examiner is not trying to trick you.

The examiner never mentioned hearing a sound signal.
Safe speed. Again the examiner never questioned your speed.

This question is about being under way making way in reduced visibility using radar for collision avoidance.

Determining safe speed and action required when encountering reduced visibility,
He is ither already satisfied with your answer earlier or he has not asked yet.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

For those of you who may be interested here is an actual UK Class 1 exam question. They don’t use multiple guess exams orals only.

You are Master of a power driven vessel, your are under way making way, you are in restricted visibility.

You observe, On your radar screen.

A target 2 points on your port bow. At the edge of screen.

A few minutes later target is observed 2 points on your port bow, one range ring closer.

A few minutes later target is observed 2 points on your port bow, one range ring closer.

That’s it there the question. Let’s hear your answers.

Good example and is typical of an Oral exam where Examiner doesn't give you enough info to make an informed assesment....

They are more interested in your basic understanding of priorities.

Answer:
Hard to starboard to turn onto your reciprocal course.
Primary reason is to reduce the relative speed to minimum while you assess enough info to stay clear.

Remember when Jack was being examined, it was reflecto plotter and radar plotting sheets to work out the vectors. It took time.

Range didn't matter in the question as the fixed rings were to scale with that range setting, so the relative closing speed to collision was high of one ring every few minutes on a steady bearing

A similar question to Command Endorsement Mates is that your vessel starts to ice up, what action should you first take?

There was only one acceptable answer:
In the Northern Hemisphere turn South and in the Southern, turn North.

[Pandor]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

There was only one acceptable answer:
In the Northern Hemisphere turn South and in the Southern, turn North.

To your answer I would have instinctively added “...and keep going until the butter melts. “

[MicHughV]

some years back when I was a newbie in the armed forces, our sergeant asked us if anyone in our platoon objected to him using curse words...
there were some mumbled responses...
so he asked us, if I tell you to move your arse, what would we think he meant by that...slowly, quickly, now, in a little while..???
again, came some mumbled responses....
this time he asked us, and if I were to tell you to move your f**king arse what would we think he meant by that that....
this time, we all responded that we knew " exactly" what he meant...

in other words, how a question is posed, is key to getting the correct answer.....