US citizen/resident & EU citizen buying EU boat

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boom23

That's definitely an option, as long as I can get the VAT refunded. In the past, I never received a VAT refund even though I submitted the required forms. This one is a very sizeable VAT amount...
If I were living in EU I would pay the VAT and go on with my life, but I'm not.

As to VAT, you are not the one that paid the VAT on a vessel that was purchased with VAT previously paid. I'm not sure that you could receive a refund when exporting, such as when you bring it across the pond and import it to the USA. But that is certainly worth looking into the possibility of a refund as the amount could be considerably, more than the VAT on a bottle of whisky.

Also, note the distinction between the EU and its common market and the Schengen Area which is an area comprising 26 European states that have officially abolished passport and all other types of border control at their mutual borders. The area mostly functions as a single jurisdiction for international travel purposes, with a common visa policy. Today, the Schengen Area encompasses most EU States, except for Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania and the United Kingdom. However, Bulgaria and Romania are currently in the process of joining the Schengen Area. Of non-EU States, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein have joined the Schengen Area.

You need to gain clarity as to distinguishing the laws regarding the vessel and the laws regarding you and your wife. Don't mix the subjects else you will confuse matters.

Reference: http://https://uk.boats.com/boat-buy...t-boats-guide/

Enjoy sailing.

[Rac88]

“Look on the EU as a form of the USA with its 50 states”

Not sure of that... Charlemagne and Napoleon are dead. Europe is not a Country, and there is no EU citizenship.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No.. you can only stay in the EU for 90 days out of 180 regardless of how many countries you visit..
Look on the EU as a form of the USA with its 50 states.. it does not matter how many states I visit I have to leave after 90 days.. same for you in the EU.
They are countries in name only.. the reality is they are a Federalism of states in todays world..
Hence Brexit.. No to Federalism Yes to Sovereignty and Independence..
Residency is something you have to apply for.. like your Green Card.

If you're not an EU citizen... I am EU citizen so I don't have this restriction. That's why I'm asking about residency. Residency determines VAT payment requirements.

[Rac88]

I was just thinking about Italy, refusing to accept immigrants - news last week - and saying “send them to France”...

Is that a “single jurisdiction” or a “common visa policy”?

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Montanan

As to VAT, you are not the one that paid the VAT on a vessel that was purchased with VAT previously paid. I'm not sure that you could receive a refund when exporting, such as when you bring it across the pond and import it to the USA. But that is certainly worth looking into the possibility of a refund as the amount could be considerably, more than the VAT on a bottle of whisky.

Also, note the distinction between the EU and its common market and the Schengen Area which is an area comprising 26 European states that have officially abolished passport and all other types of border control at their mutual borders. The area mostly functions as a single jurisdiction for international travel purposes, with a common visa policy. Today, the Schengen Area encompasses most EU States, except for Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania and the United Kingdom. However, Bulgaria and Romania are currently in the process of joining the Schengen Area. Of non-EU States, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein have joined the Schengen Area.

You need to gain clarity as to distinguishing the laws regarding the vessel and the laws regarding you and your wife. Don't mix the subjects else you will confuse matters.

Reference: http://https://uk.boats.com/boat-buy...t-boats-guide/

Enjoy sailing.

It is my understanding that Schengen applies to non EU citizens. EU country citizens can stay in any EU country as long as they want. That's why I'm asking about residency implications.

Also, my boat is new. The VAT has not been paid and it is way more that the VAT of a bottle of Whiskey (which I'll have tonight).

[De.windhoos]

Originally Posted by boom23

That's definitely an option, as long as I can get the VAT refunded. In the past, I never received a VAT refund even though I submitted the required forms. This one is a very sizeable VAT amount...
If I were living in EU I would pay the VAT and go on with my life, but I'm not.

Can’t Amel advice you? Given the sticker price you probably aren’t the first with that question.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rac88

“Look on the EU as a form of the USA with its 50 states”

Not sure of that... Charlemagne and Napoleon are dead. Europe is not a Country, and there is no EU citizenship.

Tell that to Brussels and the idiots in the UK who don't want to lose their 'EU Citizenship'.. much confusion and BS flying about these days.
It is a group of Federated States who share the same rules and have an external border but no internal ones.. theoretically.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by boom23

It is my understanding that Schengen applies to non EU citizens. EU country citizens can stay in any EU country as long as they want. That's why I'm asking about residency implications.

Also, my boat is new. The VAT has not been paid and it is way more that the VAT of a bottle of Whiskey (which I'll have tonight).

If you are a European national (less confusing) buying new in Europe you are liable to VAT unless you are exporting the boat, in which case you have a time limit by which it has to be out of the EU.
The best way to my mind for you would be a Delaware LLC registration and a USA flag.. its a dodge used by a coupla three folks I know and not just for boats.
Once you have taken possession of the boat use the time allowed to sail it to a non EU country, spend a couple of weeks there then sail back in and set the 18month clock.
Oh.. and the 'stay in any country as long as you want is a misconception.. it has a time limit after which if you wish to continue living there you have to apply for and be approved for residency.. provisional for first 5yrs
UK citizen, full Portuguese Resident

[De.windhoos]

Originally Posted by boom23

It is my understanding that Schengen applies to non EU citizens. EU country citizens can stay in any EU country as long as they want. That's why I'm asking about residency implications.

Also, my boat is new. The VAT has not been paid and it is way more that the VAT of a bottle of Whiskey (which I'll have tonight).

Do you have proof of residency outside the EU? Can also be some kind of income statement or other economic proof. I think that should be enough. But again, and given the sum involved, get some professional advice.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by De.windhoos

Can’t Amel advice you? Given the sticker price you probably aren’t the first with that question.

I will definitely ask them. I am also contacting a firm which specializes with these issues. I want advice from someone who will accept liability if their advice is wrong.

I was hoping that someone had personal experience with this topic so that I could learn something and I could form better questions for the experts...

[boom23]

Originally Posted by De.windhoos

Do you have proof of residency outside the EU? Can also be some kind of income statement or other economic proof. I think that should be enough. But again, and given the sum involved, get some professional advice.

I am US citizen and resident. I pay (lots of) taxes in US. I can prove that.

I have also dealt with European countries bureaucracy to know what kind of pain that is... I want to be prepared for any complications before they happen.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rac88

I was just thinking about Italy, refusing to accept immigrants - news last week - and saying “send them to France”...

Is that a “single jurisdiction” or a “common visa policy”?

That's another thing entirely.. Brussels has tried to issue quotas to the EU 27 as to the amount of refugees they have to accept since Merkels Open Door Policy led to the flood of immigrants.
Greece is flooded, Italy says enough.. no more and Hungary and a few others are refusing immigrants.
Italy, Hungary and others face possible sanctions from Brussels as a result.

[De.windhoos]

Originally Posted by boom23

I am US citizen and resident. I pay (lots of) taxes in US. I can prove that.

I have also dealt with European countries bureaucracy to know what kind of pain that is... I want to be prepared for any complications before they happen.

Yeah, unfortunately ours don’t shutdown as easily as in some other countries

[RELENTLESS 1]

Thank you to all who have been contributing, this has been very informative.
We are US Citizens, CA residents,
The Admiral and I have ordered and are picking up our boat in Summer 2020 in France.

Our intent is to sail it in the Med - all EU countries for 60-90 days and bring her back to the Factory for the factory required check-up/rig tune/repairs and to install some after market items. (we will head home for the winter).
In spring 2021 take the boat off the hard in FR and sail Med to the East then in the fall leave entirely and do the ARC to Carib.
Question #1 - Do I need to get outside of the EU before 90 days as a US Citizen? If so we will go to Turkey or? to satisfy that requirement for a week or so then head back into the EU while working our way west to the Canaries.

I will likely do a Deleware LLC for convenience with USCG Documentation -
Question #2 - can I put my CA Home marina on the Transom without a problem? No disrespect to Delaware but CA is a much better conversation starter in foreign ports.

I will keep my CA residency but do not expect to owe any tax until I bring the boat home in 3-4 years - at which point it will have a depreciated value and I will pay the 'Registration Tax' on that value and the annual Property Tax.

No VAT would be owed if I exit the EU within 18 months - so even if I don't make it to a non-EU port I will be in the Carib before the 18 months expires

Are my assumptions correct?

[De.windhoos]

Originally Posted by Dawntreader2

Thank you to all who have been contributing, this has been very informative.
We are US Citizens, CA residents,
The Admiral and I have ordered and are picking up our boat in Summer 2020 in France.

Our intent is to sail it in the Med - all EU countries for 60-90 days and bring her back to the Factory for the factory required check-up/rig tune/repairs and to install some after market items. (we will head home for the winter).
In spring 2021 take the boat off the hard in FR and sail Med to the East then in the fall leave entirely and do the ARC to Carib.
Question #1 - Do I need to get outside of the EU before 90 days as a US Citizen? If so we will go to Turkey or? to satisfy that requirement for a week or so then head back into the EU while working our way west to the Canaries.

I will likely do a Deleware LLC for convenience with USCG Documentation -
Question #2 - can I put my CA Home marina on the Transom without a problem? No disrespect to Delaware but CA is a much better conversation starter in foreign ports.

I will keep my CA residency but do not expect to owe any tax until I bring the boat home in 3-4 years - at which point it will have a depreciated value and I will pay the 'Registration Tax' on that value and the annual Property Tax.

No VAT would be owed if I exit the EU within 18 months - so even if I don't make it to a non-EU port I will be in the Carib before the 18 months expires

Are my assumptions correct?

On point 1; you get 90 days in 180. So you need to leave the EU on the 90th day, and you are not allowed back in for the next 90 days.

On the VAT. your boat is allowed in the EU for 18 months. If you put her on the hard you can put het "Out of Bond" that period that she's on the hard doesn't count.
Your boat only needs to leave the EU for 1 day and get back in for another 18 months. However it is advisable to have some proof that the boat was out of the EU, for instance, a marina bill or transit log from a non-EU country.

Hope this helps