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Old 10-11-2018, 12:46   #1
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Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

Ran across this interesting report in G-captain:

https://gcaptain.com/masters-fined-o...e-of-failures/

I wonder if these chaps referred to yotties as'WAFIs"?

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Old 11-11-2018, 12:49   #2
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

One time, long ago, before the days of GPS, and before I had much sailing experience, (long before AIS, too) it happened on MY watch that there was northbound and southbound ship traffic on our route. It was a moonless night, and myself in the cockpit, watching the lights from the ship overtaking from astern, and the lights of the one coming towards us. This occurred on the run from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas, open ocean, but sort of coastal, before we learned to try and avoid shipping lanes.

Watching, watching. Getting a little nervous, I was. Well, of course, they were professionals, and there was no reason to pass each other closely (and may well not have been aware of our tiny craft at all, who knows?) They passed each other safely, and we were like a skimpy strip of bacon between two monster pieces of bread!

************

One of the interesting things about the collision in Jim's link is the quantification of blame to the officers in charge of the vessels, as reflected in their fines.

Over the time I've been a CF member, I have read Dockhead's navigation threads, very interesting, and come to the conclusion that given the accidents that have happened involving motor yachts vs. sailboats, that taking action long before Colregs would be involved may be the safer course. The speed differential is so great that by the time you decide to ditch Colregs' maintaining course and speed, you may not be able to get out of the way in time. It happened in the Caribbean two years ago, with loss of life, and it happened in the US this year, with no injuries but loss of yacht.

Finally, i would say that now, I might have changed course out to the West, to get clear of those two ships. They felt way too close to me back then.

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Old 11-11-2018, 13:14   #3
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

"...Petunia Seaway...making its way down the Humber towards Grimbsy, under the command of Captain Thomas Neilsen..."

Upriver of Grimsby the ship would've surely had a Humber Pilot still aboard; how come it's the vessel's Captain and not he that's taking the rap?
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Old 11-11-2018, 13:17   #4
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

It gets better... how come the watchkeeper at VTS Humber didn't get his name up in lights?

https://gcaptain.com/maib-experience...-humber-river/

And whats wrong with relying on an I-pad app?? Everyone on CF reckons its OK.....

I am reminded of a case just before I retired ... Henry Hudson Bridge ( deep draft box boat ) outwards in the Port Melbourne Channel.... dark... thick fog... HHB constrained to the channel by draught.

Spirit of Tasmania passed Fawkner Beacon and entered PMC with radar on 3 mile range....

We were ahead of her coming up to the west of the channel where she should have been....... I still have copies of the report... my statements etc... talk about a close shave.... somebody wasn't master of that ship any more....
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Old 11-11-2018, 13:18   #5
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnlesley View Post
"...Petunia Seaway...making its way down the Humber towards Grimbsy, under the command of Captain Thomas Neilsen..."

Upriver of Grimsby the ship would've surely had a Humber Pilot still aboard; how come it's the vessel's Captain and not he that's taking the rap?
A regular trader and 'Pilotage exempt' maybe? .. Dunno how that works in the UK.
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Old 11-11-2018, 13:24   #6
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

Carlin was exempt (a pilot in his own right). I don't know about the other vessel.

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Old 11-11-2018, 14:07   #7
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
I have read Dockhead's navigation threads, very interesting, and come to the conclusion that given the accidents that have happened involving motor yachts vs. sailboats, that taking action long before Colregs would be involved may be the safer course. The speed differential is so great that by the time you decide to ditch Colregs' maintaining course and speed, you may not be able to get out of the way in time.

Im with you Anne. If Iím in a position of doubt about potential risk I take early action to get the hell out of the way or even the vicinity, regardless of COLREGS and stand on and so forth, when in the vicinity of ships. I stay well out of shipping lanes, crossing them at right angles, and even offshore will change course early to get as much searoom as possible if I have any doubt. AIS certainly simplifies matters greatly but not always.

I remember a ship captain here saying that big ships will see you and adjust course miles away, before you even know they are there (which would needless to say make your own course change potentially problematic) but that has not been my experience offshore.
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Old 11-11-2018, 14:15   #8
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
Carlin was exempt (a pilot in his own right). I don't know about the other vessel.

Ann
Carlin did not require any licences to be where he was doing what he was doing...

However he was held to a higher level of accountability because of his qualifications...
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Old 11-11-2018, 14:30   #9
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Im with you Anne. If Iím in a position of doubt about potential risk I take early action to get the hell out of the way or even the vicinity, regardless of COLREGS and stand on and so forth, when in the vicinity of ships. I stay well out of shipping lanes, crossing them at right angles, and even offshore will change course early to get as much searoom as possible if I have any doubt. AIS certainly simplifies matters greatly but not always.

I remember a ship captain here saying that big ships will see you and adjust course miles away, before you even know they are there (which would needless to say make your own course change potentially problematic) but that has not been my experience offshore.
With AIS we have had the opposite experience with ships making 1 or 2į changes when 10 to 20 miles away and then going back on the original course right passing. Without our AIS we would never have seen the changes.
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Old 11-11-2018, 14:40   #10
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

It is always way more fun to speculate and invent facts... but in this case there is a detailed professional report on exactly what happened. Way more informative than a news report--which in my experience are ALWAYS wrong. You just don't know where...

Collision between ro-ro freight ferry Petunia Seaways and historic motor launch Peggotty

Talk about over-confidence.... Heading out into zero-vis fog with no compass, no effective way of plotting a position... without sounding fog signals... He (and his passenger) were really lucky they didn't pay the Darwin tax.
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Old 11-11-2018, 15:38   #11
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnlesley View Post
"...Petunia Seaway...making its way down the Humber towards Grimbsy, under the command of Captain Thomas Neilsen..."

Upriver of Grimsby the ship would've surely had a Humber Pilot still aboard; how come it's the vessel's Captain and not he that's taking the rap?
To Pilots advice and Masters Orders

Pilot is never legally in charge of the ship except I believe in the Panama Cannal. The pilot advises the Master or OOW the Master or OOW remain in charge and responsible for the conduct of the vessel.
The ship may have been pilot exempt.
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Old 11-11-2018, 15:42   #12
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

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To Pilots advice and Masters Orders

Pilot is never legally in charge of the ship except I believe in the Panama Cannal. The pilot advises the Master or OOW the Master or OOW remain in charge and responsible for the conduct of the vessel.
The ship may have been pilot exempt.
If you read the report above ^^^^ both the master and the mate of the ro-ro held pilotage exemption certificates for the Humber.

I believe Tampa may be another place where the pilot is in charge... don't recall where or when I heard that...
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Old 11-11-2018, 17:06   #13
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

Is it just me or does £3,000 fine seem a bit small for such a serious incident? They pleaded guilty but still...

Simple hubris seems to be the root cause.
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Old 11-11-2018, 17:15   #14
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

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Is it just me or does £3,000 fine seem a bit small for such a serious incident? They pleaded guilty but still...

Simple hubris seems to be the root cause.
A fine of any size would be neither here nor there compared with losing your job as a Humber pilot or having your pilotage exemption cancelled.....

Serious incident? No loss of life ... no pollution... ship didn't even feel the bump...
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Old 11-11-2018, 17:23   #15
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Re: Two professionals in the fog: held to a high standard??

One of the boats sank according to the report. I think that's pretty serious.
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