Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-08-2018, 15:49   #1
Registered User
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,397
State and local rules in conflict with colregs

For discussion, I apparently have to follow these widely varying local "enhancements" to the colregs depending on what waters I find myself in.



No wonder people are confused.


== Minneapolis city ordinance ==


  • (a) A boat sailing before the wind, or "running free," shall keep out of the way of a boat close hauled.
    (b) A boat close hauled on the port tack shall keep out of the way of a boat close hauled on the starboard tack.
    (c) When both are running free with the wind on different sides, the boat having the wind to the port side shall keep out of the way of the other.
    (d) When both are running free with the wind on the same side, the boat which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the boat to leeward.
    (e) A boat sailing with the wind abaft the beam shall keep out of the way of a boat sailing with the wind forward of the beam. (Code 1960, As Amend., ß 1032.020)
== State regulations ==







The Minnesota DNR has issued these rules for state waters:


6110.1200 NAVIGATION OF WATERCRAFT ON THE WATERS OF THE STATE; SAFETY EQUIPMENT.

Subpart 1.

Rules of the road.

Rules of the road:
A.

When watercraft are running in the same direction, the watercraft being overtaken has right-of-way and must hold course and speed. The watercraft which is astern shall pass only when there is sufficient distance so the maneuver can be done safely and only at such speed that its wash or wake will not endanger the watercraft being passed or its occupants. No person operating a watercraft shall abruptly change its course without first determining that it can be safely done without risk of collision.

B.

When watercraft are approaching each other head on, or nearly so, each shall turn to the right a sufficient distance so that they will safely pass. When the course of an approaching craft is so far to the right as not to be considered as meeting head on, each shall maintain its course and pass clear.

C.

When watercraft are crossing courses, or approaching each other obliquely or at right angles, so as to involve risk of collision, the craft which has the other on its own right shall yield right-of-way.

D.

A nonmotorized watercraft has right-of-way over a motor-powered watercraft except when it is the overtaking watercraft. Motor-powered watercraft should always keep clear and pass astern of nonmotorized watercraft.

E.

Small watercraft shall not insist on the right-of-way, nor unnecessarily impede the passage of large commercial vessels, which are restricted in their ability to maneuver by size, draft, or speed.

F.

When watercraft are in a narrow channel, each shall keep as far to the right as may be safe or practical.

G.

All watercraft shall yield the right-of-way to enforcement or other authorized emergency watercraft displaying a red or blue flashing light.
__________________

Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2018, 16:48   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Juneau, Alaska
Boat: Vector Marine 39' Cutter
Posts: 49
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Consult a lawyer in the jurisdiction for legal advice &c., but the question is addressed in 83 CFR 83.01(a)
__________________

JohnHutchins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2018, 18:57   #3
Registered User
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,397
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHutchins View Post
Consult a lawyer in the jurisdiction for legal advice &c., but the question is addressed in 83 CFR 83.01(a)

Looks like you meant 33 cfr 83.01(a). Thanks. That helps.
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 08:08   #4
Registered User
 
CaptTom's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Boat: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 1,882
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

No confusion. The federal rules only apply to federal waters. That essentially includes anything navigable from the sea, and waterways on the border between states.

Sole-state waters are under state jurisdiction only. Most states will mirror the federal (and by extension, international) rules, just to keep things simple. I suspect that's what the MN law cited in the OP is doing.

Never heard of Colregs for municipal waters. What would that be, a pond solely within one city? Seems state regulations would govern, but you'd have to find out whether or not the state allows the municipality to override those. Probably they could be more restrictive, but not contradict state law.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 08:09   #5
cruiser

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: currently in Bahamas
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 16,293
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

acturally on a quick read the rules seem the same just using didn't phasing and words
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 08:25   #6
Registered User
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,397
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
No confusion. The federal rules only apply to federal waters. That essentially includes anything navigable from the sea, and waterways on the border between states.

I believe that, in practice, this includes nearly all my local cruising grounds -- the Mississippi river and its tributaries, and Lake Superior. There is a substantial body of case law that defines nearly all the large lakes in the state as navigable, because they were used for interstate commerce at some point in the past.



Quote:

Sole-state waters are under state jurisdiction only. Most states will mirror the federal (and by extension, international) rules, just to keep things simple. I suspect that's what the MN law cited in the OP is doing.
They differ in important details. State law has a "law of tonnage" provision that small vessels must not "insist" upon "right of way," treats rowed or paddled boats on par with sailboats in that they are the stand-on vessel when encountering powered craft. Nuances like downbound power being stand-on when encountering upbound sail are lost.


We had multiple threads on CF on whether a "law of tonnage" exists in the inland (federal) colregs (it doesn't), and on whether rowboats are always stand-on when encountering power boats (they're not; they are instead governed by very general rules of good seamanship).


It's not a hypothetical question. There are rowing clubs on the Mississippi that are nearly militant in demanding that other vessels stay out of their way and let them do whatever they might like. Under state law, they are permitted to do that. Under the inland colregs, not so much.



Quote:

Never heard of Colregs for municipal waters. What would that be, a pond solely within one city? Seems state regulations would govern, but you'd have to find out whether or not the state allows the municipality to override those. Probably they could be more restrictive, but not contradict state law.
There are 3 lakes wholly within the Minneapolis city limits that are used for dinghy sailing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
acturally on a quick read the rules seem the same just using didn't phasing and words

No, there are some really wonky things in there, like close-hauled having right of way over boats on a reach or a run.
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 08:30   #7
Registered User
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,397
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Another oddity is that state law defines the rules for sailboats the same way as power. None of this business of port tack giving way to starboard tack.
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 08:33   #8
cruiser

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: currently in Bahamas
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 16,293
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post

No, there are some really wonky things in there, like close-hauled having right of way over boats on a reach or a run.
if you read your colregs you will find that is in there, because if both are on a stbd tach the boat on the reach/run will be to windward and that makes them the give way boat

it is just rewording that in way is more clear, if you read "rule" in various places/books you come across lots of rewording
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 08:34   #9
cruiser

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: currently in Bahamas
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 16,293
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

I can't believe I've let my get into a "rules" thread.
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 08:49   #10
Registered User
 
akprb's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Alaska
Boat: Boatless
Posts: 920
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Think about it. You want to go for a lazy afternoon sail on the lake.

As you are cruising along someone behind a desk somewhere is writing all these rules.

We have devolved:-)
__________________
www.sailingohana.com

"Take it all in, it's as big as it seems, count all your blessings, remember your dreams" JB
akprb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 09:02   #11
Registered User
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,397
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
if you read your colregs you will find that is in there, because if both are on a stbd tach the boat on the reach/run will be to windward and that makes them the give way boat

it is just rewording that in way is more clear, if you read "rule" in various places/books you come across lots of rewording



See diagram.


Boat A is stand-on vessel under colregs because port tack gives way to starboard tack

Boat B is stand-on vessel under city ordinance because reach gives way to close-hauled
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1535558307009.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	383.7 KB
ID:	176382  
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 09:20   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,978
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

The city ordinance is specific to two sailing [non-mechanically powered] vessels and as to their respective tack.

The State regulations cover all watercraft and appear to be standard Colregs, which provides for the situations involving powered and non-powered boats.

Perhaps I am missing something but I'm not seeing confusion. They seem like the ordinary rules.

The best rule is to just Stand Away so that collision is not of issue.

Jurisdiction might get confusing as to the defined body of waters that are City.
Montanan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 09:20   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Boat in Greece, Beach cat in Israel
Boat: Lagoon 400 & Nacra 6.0 beach cat
Posts: 1,067
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
if you read your colregs you will find that is in there, because if both are on a stbd tach the boat on the reach/run will be to windward and that makes them the give way boat

it is just rewording that in way is more clear, if you read "rule" in various places/books you come across lots of rewording
How about a close hauled starboard boat meeting a port tack boat running on broad reach or even sailing downwind?
You think this is not possible encounter?
meirriba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 11:12   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,112
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

State waters, if you are talking about lakes within the boundaries of a state are not considered the navigable waters of the United States, therefor ColRegs do not apply. They only apply to certain lakes like the Great Lakes and certain large rivers where nav aids are installed and maintained by the US Coast Guard or the US Army Corps of Engineers and where the USCG has jurisdiction.

If you are unsure, if there are no USCG or Army Corps installed and maintained nav aides then local and/or state rules, if any, may apply. Be advised, even if ColRegs don't technically apply, a court of law may entertain the application of such rules in its deliberations, the idea being everyone on the water should know basic seamanship.
jmschmidt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2018, 11:17   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,978
Re: State and local rules in conflict with colregs

Municipal Waters ColRegs being appropriately applied:

Not seeing any confusion here.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	0096_bumper-boats-best-vacations-for-families-in-poconos.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	442.4 KB
ID:	176398  
__________________

Montanan is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cal, rule

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Family aboard: Personal space and avoiding conflict Steve Richards Liveaboard's Forum 17 21-09-2012 08:59
Conflict with Offshore Navigator and GPS input callistov42 Navigation 2 14-06-2012 07:40
conflict of interest? swami maximus General Sailing Forum 68 23-05-2007 16:51

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.