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09-03-2023, 08:45
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#31
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 5,428
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
That is nonsense. Boats in a turn follow a circular path - they don't make a 90º angle. The only possibility of snagging your own lines, is if they are long enough that going all the way round could allow you to cross your tail, and they are not at depth.
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I can only speak to my experience. Typically when we are trolling from a small boat (16'-21') we have 4 people fishing. Those seated on the forward thwarts or seats are holding rods with lines out fully to the sides. Center and stern thwart or seat have lines closer to the boat; center seat with the rod pointed aft on the starboard side, aft with one hand on the tiller and a rod crossing the port side of the stern transom. Typically we fish 6" to 24" below the surface with lines that extend 40' back from the boat (2 boatlengths is the guideline we follow).
Now, make a hard turn to port with that setup, the forward starboard line is going to tend to be pulled under the boat and snag on the motor. If everyone is on the ball then the forward individual on the outside of the turn will hold their line straight up and let the line go over the motor, but they will then snag the aft starboard line unless that individual is also on the ball enough to get their line up and over the top of the outboard but under the forward line. At best you can make the turn with no snags and then reel up the lines when you're done and start over.
If we are using an electric trolling motor, then there is the additional step of starting (and possibly lowering, if it was tilted) the outboard.
Now, I know how the COLREGS are interpreted and what the rules are, but the idea that having lines out trolling doesn't affect maneuverability boggles the mind. Sure, there are some styles of offshore trolling where the lines only go back from the stern where that may be true, but it is not true for the typical inland or near coastal fishing that I have seen.
__________________
The best part of an adventure is the people you meet.
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09-03-2023, 08:53
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Now, make a hard turn to port with that setup, the forward starboard line is going to tend to be pulled under the boat and snag on the motor. .
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I have you ever actually had this happen?
I have a hard time visualizing how the line would even enter the water ahead of the transom. I would think a snap turn would likely clothesline the driver.
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09-03-2023, 08:53
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,995
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
I can only speak to my experience. Typically when we are trolling from a small boat (16'-21') we have 4 people fishing. Those seated on the forward thwarts or seats are holding rods with lines out fully to the sides. Center and stern thwart or seat have lines closer to the boat; center seat with the rod pointed aft on the starboard side, aft with one hand on the tiller and a rod crossing the port side of the stern transom. Typically we fish 6" to 24" below the surface with lines that extend 40' back from the boat (2 boatlengths is the guideline we follow).
Now, make a hard turn to port with that setup, the forward starboard line is going to tend to be pulled under the boat and snag on the motor. If everyone is on the ball then the forward individual on the outside of the turn will hold their line straight up and let the line go over the motor, but they will then snag the aft starboard line unless that individual is also on the ball enough to get their line up and over the top of the outboard but under the forward line. At best you can make the turn with no snags and then reel up the lines when you're done and start over.
If we are using an electric trolling motor, then there is the additional step of starting (and possibly lowering, if it was tilted) the outboard.
Now, I know how the COLREGS are interpreted and what the rules are, but the idea that having lines out trolling doesn't affect maneuverability boggles the mind. Sure, there are some styles of offshore trolling where the lines only go back from the stern where that may be true, but it is not true for the typical inland or near coastal fishing that I have seen.
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Good point, I wasn't even thinking of trolling with outriggers where you'd have lines deployed off the side forward of the transom. Or small boat trolling with rods in hand off the side.
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09-03-2023, 10:08
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#34
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 5,428
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
I have you ever actually had this happen?
I have a hard time visualizing how the line would even enter the water ahead of the transom. I would think a snap turn would likely clothesline the driver.
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More than once. Usually with inexperienced people operating the motor in situations where there is no particular reason to rush the turn.
In my case I'm talking about light tackle and handheld rods. The person in front has a rod that extends 5 feet out from the gunwale, say, with the tip held 2-3' above the surface of the water. The line enters the water maybe 6' back maybe 4' forward of the transom. As you get into the turn the line enters the water closer to the boat and further forward because the line is leading across the boat.
I've also had lines clothesline the operator and get caught in the steering mechanism of the outboard.
__________________
The best part of an adventure is the people you meet.
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09-03-2023, 10:38
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
More than once. Usually with inexperienced people operating the motor in situations where there is no particular reason to rush the turn.
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The Colregs don't make distinctions between large vessels and tiny ones - but the writers of the rules really had larger vessels in mind, so in thinking about the relative loss in manoeuvrability, they envisaged commercial trolling, rather than a few lads in a tinnie. That said, you are not really "restricted" per se. You are limited to more sedate manoeuvres, and perhaps won't be able to come to a complete stop.
With regards to such an interaction with a large vessel, I would think that more often than not, the large vessel OOW would view a small open boat with lines in the water as flotsam to be avoided. Someone upthread said something about treating certain vessels as deer on the road - same thing.
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09-03-2023, 11:09
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Muskegon, Mi
Boat: Columbia 36
Posts: 1,299
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
A lot of the Rules go back 100 years or more. You can see this from how they're worded, for instance using the word "whistle" instead of "horn". Steamships had whistles. Back then there were hardly any "pleasure craft", and a lot of those were operated by professional crews. The Rules were written with larger or commercial vessels in mind simply because that's all that existed it the time.
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09-03-2023, 12:13
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#37
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 10,284
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
I can only speak to my experience. Typically when we are trolling from a small boat (16'-21') we have 4 people fishing. Those seated on the forward thwarts or seats are holding rods with lines out fully to the sides. Center and stern thwart or seat have lines closer to the boat; center seat with the rod pointed aft on the starboard side, aft with one hand on the tiller and a rod crossing the port side of the stern transom. Typically we fish 6" to 24" below the surface with lines that extend 40' back from the boat (2 boatlengths is the guideline we follow).
Now, make a hard turn to port with that setup, the forward starboard line is going to tend to be pulled under the boat and snag on the motor. If everyone is on the ball then the forward individual on the outside of the turn will hold their line straight up and let the line go over the motor, but they will then snag the aft starboard line unless that individual is also on the ball enough to get their line up and over the top of the outboard but under the forward line. At best you can make the turn with no snags and then reel up the lines when you're done and start over.
If we are using an electric trolling motor, then there is the additional step of starting (and possibly lowering, if it was tilted) the outboard.
Now, I know how the COLREGS are interpreted and what the rules are, but the idea that having lines out trolling doesn't affect maneuverability boggles the mind. Sure, there are some styles of offshore trolling where the lines only go back from the stern where that may be true, but it is not true for the typical inland or near coastal fishing that I have seen.
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Yes, I have trolled in that manner many times. I normally have 6 lines out, and many more with planer boards. Although you will tangle gear, there is nothing preventing you from maneuvering relatively sharply to avoid a collision. Colregs isn't about what is convenient for you, it is about safety.
And no, I would never cause a fishing boat with lines out to change course, and I would never cross close astern. That is just RUDE. I wish everyone knew this. But we must separate convenience from safety. Push come to shove, a troller can turn or stop.
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09-03-2023, 12:56
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#38
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 10,284
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Getting back to status when hanging to a drogue or sea anchor, the USCG says this:
24. How does a vessel know another is restricted in their ability to maneuver, not under command, or constrained by draft? A vessel’s status is communicated via their display of lights and shapes. The determination of whether a vessel is restricted in their ability to maneuver is at the master’s discretion. Should a master consider their vessel restricted in their ability to maneuver, the vessel shall exhibit the lights or shapes as such ( Rule 27) in accordance with the technical specifications ( Annex I). If a vessel is not displaying the appropriate lights/shapes for a vessel restricted in their ability to maneuver, then it is assumed that they are not. Thus, the vessel’s conduct is governed by Rules 2-18 when in sight of other vessels and Rule 19 when not (or areas of restricted visibility).
In other words, you decide, understanding that you might have to defend that decision. If I am drift fishing in the shipping channel, my defense is paper thin. If I am trailing a JSD in force 10-12 conditions, I feel comfortable with my decision. Yes, I could cut it loose, but I believe doing so would imperil my vessel. What is important is that I believe it, and I'm pretty sure I would.
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09-03-2023, 13:23
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 3,676
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
Getting back to status when hanging to a drogue or sea anchor, the USCG says this:
24. How does a vessel know another is restricted in their ability to maneuver, not under command, or constrained by draft? A vessel’s status is communicated via their display of lights and shapes. The determination of whether a vessel is restricted in their ability to maneuver is at the master’s discretion. Should a master consider their vessel restricted in their ability to maneuver, the vessel shall exhibit the lights or shapes as such ( Rule 27) in accordance with the technical specifications ( Annex I). If a vessel is not displaying the appropriate lights/shapes for a vessel restricted in their ability to maneuver, then it is assumed that they are not. Thus, the vessel’s conduct is governed by Rules 2-18 when in sight of other vessels and Rule 19 when not (or areas of restricted visibility).
In other words, you decide, understanding that you might have to defend that decision. If I am drift fishing in the shipping channel, my defense is paper thin. If I am trailing a JSD in force 10-12 conditions, I feel comfortable with my decision. Yes, I could cut it loose, but I believe doing so would imperil my vessel. What is important is that I believe it, and I'm pretty sure I would.
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My understanding of restricted in ability to maneuver is that it is somewhat narrow. Specifically, the vessel must be restricted by the _nature_of_work. For example, a vessel servicing a mark or dredging a channel is restricted, because they can't turn and dredge outside the channel, or service the mark where the mark isn't at.
Neither fishing or trailing a JSD would fit that definition. You can fish elsewhere, you are not restricted to the spot you are in. You might be able to argue with the JSD that the vessel is not under command. Maybe? I'm not sure about that, but it makes sense as your turning the helm wouldn't actually turn the vessel.
And of course, none of the privileges obtained by being restricted in maneuverability apply unless you are showing the correct lights/shapes.
See rule 3.g
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/navigati...lgamated#rule3
__________________
-Warren
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09-03-2023, 16:07
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 1,182
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
A JSD... might. One example of RAM is "A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course."
We'd then have to define "work", and my guess is in this context that it would hew more closely to "the particular task in which you're engaged" rather than "something for which you're getting paid". But here again the theme arises that the restriction must be quite severe, as opposed to an inconvenience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
With regards to such an interaction with a large vessel, I would think that more often than not, the large vessel OOW would view a small open boat with lines in the water as flotsam to be avoided. Someone upthread said something about treating certain vessels as deer on the road - same thing.
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One very old case I read in the 1800s was of some kids in a rowboat that got in the path of a steamboat. I vaguely recall the judge making a similar comparison to flotsam.
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09-03-2023, 16:14
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lake City MN
Boat: C&C 27 Mk III
Posts: 2,648
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin
Good point, I wasn't even thinking of trolling with outriggers where you'd have lines deployed off the side forward of the transom. Or small boat trolling with rods in hand off the side.
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One would think the operator of said boat trolling would pay attention to said sailboat rather than simply motoring ahead
Pretty certain that most of us aren’t traveling at 40knts
If they are paying attention they can ensure the risk of collision is eliminated
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09-03-2023, 16:49
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by wholybee
My understanding of restricted in ability to maneuver is that it is somewhat narrow. Specifically, the vessel must be restricted by the _nature_of_work. For example, a vessel servicing a mark or dredging a channel is restricted, because they can't turn and dredge outside the channel, or service the mark where the mark isn't at.
Neither fishing or trailing a JSD would fit that definition. You can fish elsewhere, you are not restricted to the spot you are in. You might be able to argue with the JSD that the vessel is not under command. Maybe? I'm not sure about that, but it makes sense as your turning the helm wouldn't actually turn the vessel.
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You are right - RAM is defined by the nature of the vessels work, not by conditions imposed by weather. Fishing, in fact, is a type of work, but the framers of the Colregs decided it is a particular type of work that is not quite as constrained as others that might be RAM. RAM work does not necessarily need to be confined geographically - conducting a replenishment at sea, or flight operations is also RAM, but can be done "anywhere."
Trailing a drogue is not "towing." Again, I would place the use of such a device as being driven by conditions beyond your control, which to me, is the very definition of exceptional circumstance.
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09-03-2023, 17:23
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 3,676
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-None
One would think the operator of said boat trolling would pay attention to said sailboat rather than simply motoring ahead
Pretty certain that most of us aren’t traveling at 40knts
If they are paying attention they can ensure the risk of collision is eliminated
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I have had the experience of sailing in very close proximity to a sport fishing boat with outriggers and about 15 lines in the water. I would only guess they were trying to find fish following my boat. For about 10 miles it was crossing 50 ft behind me, beside either side of me, and directly in front of me. Generally being discourteous and obnoxious. Speeds from dead slow to 15-20 kts, and VERY maneuverable. Colregs is 100% correct to not allow them RAM status.
Edit: And it doesn't even meet the definition of "Engaged in Fishing" based on Rule 3- Which is good because there is no way we should be responsible for keeping clear of a vessel maneuvering like that.
__________________
-Warren
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09-03-2023, 18:43
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#44
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 10,284
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
... I would place the use of such a device as being driven by conditions beyond your control, which to me, is the very definition of exceptional circumstance.
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I very much meant RAM while using a drogue in survival, conditions, where I am beyond my ability to maneuver in a yacht. If I cut the drogue loose I would then be completely out of control, potentially being rolled by waves. Certainly, without the drogue my course would be less predictable, reducing safety for other boats in the area. I did NOT mean any sort of optional or convenience situation. Survival storms only.
There are many circumstances not specifically covered by COLREGS. In this case, the rule say the decision is made by the master, with the implication that he must be prepared to defend his decision. I would feel comfortable defending the above.
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09-03-2023, 20:38
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#45
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 21,636
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Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deblen
Rule 2a You are always responsible for avoiding collision
This is covered by the last part of rule 2b: "...which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."
2b Even if the other vessel is not following the rules,perhaps because of malfunction of it's machinery or it's operator.
Rule 3a "vessel"-anything that carries a person on water
The existing rule reads: "The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft, and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water."
This includes watercraft carrying people and barges that are generally towed without crew.
Rule 6a Adjust your speed & or course to fit "conditions".(I believe an "erratically operated" approaching vessel is a "condition"
Semantic argument, conditions would generally be considered wind, waves, tide, visibility. Considering a vessel being operated erratically as a condition lends weight to the legal argument they don't have to follow the COLREGS too.
Rule 7 i & ii-assess the Risk of collision early
If you start talking about early then there are legal grounds for "early" not being defined. The way the rules are written you should assess the risk of collision as soon as you can see another vessel in your vicinity and should continue assessing that risk over time.
Rule 8 a-d Take any safe action necessary to avoid collision including
8 e Stop or Reverse early if needed to avoid Risk of collision
At this point, the "pecking order" becomes secondary to avoiding collision.
Cheers/Len
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There will always be arguments about pecking order, especially about :
A. human powered vessels which are privileged by local rules in certain jurisdictions but not in the COLREGS which make no special provisions for them. The commentary in Llana&Wisneskey indicates that human or animal powered vessels are NOT included in the definition of "power driven vessel" but makes no reference to case law to support that opinion. I assume that human or animal powered vessels were not addressed in the COLREGS because there wasn't agreement on the issue by the wide group of folks involved in their creation.
B. fishing vessels in the US that are trolling which are specifically excluded in rule 3(d): "The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability."
Ultimately the COLREGS is a legal document written by admiralty lawyers, professional mariners and who knows whom else intended to be used in court as well as a guide on the water. If you want to add clarifying language to it that potentially waters down its usefulness in court because it allows semantic arguments to creep in.
Better to accept them as they are written and read various commentaries that explain what they mean in some greater depth. Keep in mind that these commentaries don't always get it right, right being how it will be interpreted in court if there is a collision or marine casualty.
Commentaries I have or know of:
"A Small boat guide to the Rules of the Road" by John Mellor.
"One-Minute Guide to the Nautical Rules of the Road" by Charlie Wing
"Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road" by Llana & Wisnesky.
"Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road, 9th Ed." by Allen & Allen
"Nautical Rules of the Road: The International and Inland Rules" by Browne, Young &. Farnsworth
"A Practical Guide to the Rules of the Road: For OOW, Chief Mate and Master Students" by Saeed & Farhan
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