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08-03-2023, 16:23
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,994
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Right, so you and I know that. It comes off as unclear though because anyone who fishes with trolling lines will tell you that they restrict maneuverability. You can't go to WOT and get on plane and turn hard to port because you'll snag your port line in the prop, for example. Not without reeling up first. I think the way it's defined is at odds with common sense.
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I've also always failed to understand the idea that trolling lines don't restrict maneuverability. They may restrict the ability to speed up, they definitely limit how tightly you can turn, they limit the ability to use reverse to stop the boat quickly, and they also may present an obstacle behind you that could foul another boat.
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08-03-2023, 17:18
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 1,182
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Thought question: Consider a sailboat adrift with bare poles. Is it on starboard tack or port tack?
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I'm not sure it would matter even matter, since it doesn't appear to be under sail, but it does raise the question of what lights it should display.
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08-03-2023, 17:26
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 122
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
For those who like getting into the weeds on COLREGS and seeing analyses & interpretation (by courts and others), I recommend getting a copy of "Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road." It has long been the "go to" in-depth reference for the COLREGS (and predecessor) rules. It is now in it's 9th edition (2020) and at 500+ pages isn't a light read, but does contain discussion of many of the points raised above. It doesn't necessarily answer all the questions, but provides a good reference.
https://www.usni.org/press/books/far...-ninth-edition
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08-03-2023, 17:56
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
It comes off as unclear though because anyone who fishes with trolling lines will tell you that they restrict maneuverability. You can't go to WOT and get on plane and turn hard to port because you'll snag your port line in the prop, for example.
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That is nonsense. Boats in a turn follow a circular path - they don't make a 90º angle. The only possibility of snagging your own lines, is if they are long enough that going all the way round could allow you to cross your tail, and they are not at depth.
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08-03-2023, 18:07
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,994
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
That is nonsense. Boats in a turn follow a circular path - they don't make a 90º angle. The only possibility of snagging your own lines, is if they are long enough that going all the way round could allow you to cross your tail, and they are not at depth.
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You won't generally suck the lines into the props, but depending on what gear you're trolling with, a tight turn could cause a big tangle and possibly damaged gear.
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08-03-2023, 18:13
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#21
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 21,526
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
.........
Thought question: Consider a sailboat adrift with bare poles. Is it on starboard tack or port tack?
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Thought answer:
Port tack if the wind is from the port side, Stbd tack if wind is from the Stbd side.
Sailboat will very very rarely (if ever) drift head or stern to wind.
Dead calm - it doesn't matter as sailboat will be stationary.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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08-03-2023, 18:24
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin
I've also always failed to understand the idea that trolling lines don't restrict maneuverability. They may restrict the ability to speed up, they definitely limit how tightly you can turn, they limit the ability to use reverse to stop the boat quickly, and they also may present an obstacle behind you that could foul another boat.
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There are limited occasions where speeding up is the "correct" course of action in a ROTR situation. I agree that trolls do limit your choices somewhat, but you can alter by up to 180º or slow down, essentially giving a small vessel the manoeuvrability of a large vessel.
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08-03-2023, 18:50
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#23
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Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,891
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Thought question: Consider a sailboat adrift with bare poles. Is it on starboard tack or port tack?
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Neither. it's not "under sail" so it's not a sailing vessel. There is no such concept as "tack" other than for a sailing vessel.
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08-03-2023, 18:54
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 1,182
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
My casual observation is that when "restricted maneuverability" is in play from a rules context there is an expectation the restriction be fairly significant, rather than a more colloquial "oh, I can't turn as sharp as I normally might".
(I'm not speaking of RAM status, just maneuverability in general.)
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09-03-2023, 05:16
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
Drifting. This is underway, unless the vessel is NUC due a serious mechanical failure. Could be RAM if hanging to a sea anchor or pulling a drogue in a storm. But no recreational boat has these shapes or lights. Having your engine off or sleeping does not make you RAM or NUC.
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I don't think RAM is appropriate, as it has to do more with the employment of the vessel. I think NUC shapes might be appropriate here. And my recreational vessel does have those - two anchor balls.
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09-03-2023, 06:39
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Muskegon, Mi
Boat: Columbia 36
Posts: 1,299
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
I don't think RAM is appropriate, as it has to do more with the employment of the vessel. I think NUC shapes might be appropriate here. And my recreational vessel does have those - two anchor balls.
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NUC is "unable to maneuver due to some exceptional circumstance". If you're drifting because your engine is broken, that is NUC. But if you're doing it on purpose, it is not exceptional. You're then just "underway but not making way". There's no light or dayshape signal for that and you're still required to keep a watch and stay out of the way as any other vessel would be. The fog signal is different, two prolonged blasts every two minutes instead of just one.
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09-03-2023, 07:40
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#27
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 10,283
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Right, so you and I know that. It comes off as unclear though because anyone who fishes with trolling lines will tell you that they restrict maneuverability. You can't go to WOT and get on plane and turn hard to port because you'll snag your port line in the prop, for example. Not without reeling up first. I think the way it's defined is at odds with common sense.
In practice, you know your example is not true (I troll frequently). You never need to turn so sharply that you would foul line in the prop, but you would potentially tangle lose gear, which you don't want to. Tough toodles, that's trolling.
This is and area, however, where courtesy solves a lot of problems, because people troll slowly and in make very slow turns. They are predictable. Sailors can give way to trollers. Trollers need to avoid regattas, big ships, and channels, and they need keep a sharp watch for approaching conflicts.
No, I do not think this is at odds with common sense, and I have lost some gear this way over the years. That's just part of it.
Again, it's unclear to most readers. COLREGs nerds know that if you're hove to or fishing with the engine off, drifting with the wind, by the letter of the rules you're supposed to fire up the engine and get out of the way when you're the stand-on vessel. Yes, and if it is a ship, very much yes. But again, courtesy helps. But that isn't the ordinary practice of seamen. (If you are adrift with one oar in the water, does that make you a rowboat?) The common practice of seamen in this age says you have an engine and you're just not using it, but you could.
Thought question: Consider a sailboat adrift with bare poles. Is it on starboard tack or port tack? First, with bare poles it is not a sailboat. Obviously. It could be human powered (no engine) but let's assume not. I saw this one in an interpretation. In fact, it does not matter (it is a power boat) and you are consider to be overtaking (it is a power boat going dead slow) or crossing.
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Good questions, but in these cases COLREGS is pretty clear.
Another question I got once: Two sailboats, but so little wind the sails are slack. Who is on which tack? Answer. You're not moving, it does not matter.
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09-03-2023, 07:48
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by capt jgw
NUC is "unable to maneuver due to some exceptional circumstance". If you're drifting because your engine is broken, that is NUC. But if you're doing it on purpose, it is not exceptional. You're then just "underway but not making way". There's no light or dayshape signal for that and you're still required to keep a watch and stay out of the way as any other vessel would be. The fog signal is different, two prolonged blasts every two minutes instead of just one.
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Well, presumably riding to a sea-anchor or drogue in a storm is an exceptional circumstance. It certainly makes it so that one is unable to manoeuvre in accordance with the Rules. Cockcroft effectively states that, and also says that a vessel with the anchor down but not holding, is considered NUC. It's kind of a grey area, but topical to this thread.
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09-03-2023, 07:50
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#29
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 10,283
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
I don't think RAM is appropriate, as it has to do more with the employment of the vessel. I think NUC shapes might be appropriate here. And my recreational vessel does have those - two anchor balls.
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(Discussing the proper designation for a boat towing a drogue or hanging from a sea anchor in a severe, survival storm [not drift fishing--that has been covered]. Is RAM appropriate?)
See rule 3, below. Note that it says "not limited to." You are not claiming no ability to maneuver, only that it is restricted by some circumstance. In a severe storm, it may be a life-death decision to cut the drogue loose, and you may still not be able to maneuver. In my mind, it is an honest and accurate assessment of your situation. You may or may not be able to maneuver significantly or accurately. Additionally, it gives the other boat information would not get from a tri-color. You have a drogue or some other restriction. But I agree, COLREGS could make this more clear.
Rule 3. (g)The term vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver shall include but not be limited to: (i)a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline; (ii)a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations; (iii)a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway; (iv)a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft; (v)a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations; (vi)a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.
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09-03-2023, 07:54
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#30
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 10,283
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Re: Situations Where COLREGS Could Be More Clear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
Well, presumably riding to a sea-anchor or drogue in a storm is an exceptional circumstance. It certainly makes it so that one is unable to manoeuvre in accordance with the Rules. Cockcroft effectively states that, and also says that a vessel with the anchor down but not holding, is considered NUC. It's kind of a grey area, but topical to this thread.
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This points to another characteristic of NUC. The boat may move in an irregular manner due to loss of steering or other factors. It may not be simply drifting. It is out of control.
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