Rules of the road question

[Achernome]

Originally Posted by davefromoregon

I have a pretty academic question. Imagine a narrow channel. Two ships on opposite direction courses. The both ships draw approximately the same amount and are constrained by depth. Neither is fishing. Neither is towing. It is not clear that the two vessels can easily pass at the narrowest point. How is it determined which is the stand on vessel? Is there a legally mandated protocol?

I suppose in reality, both skippers would be watching their AIS and would be on the radio sorting things out.

At Little Detroit in the North Channel of Lake Huron where only smaller vessels (about 80' max) can fit one at a time the protocol is to call ahead securite and inform on coming traffic of your intention to enter the channel. It is not possible to see the other side as it bends sharply. There is frequently significant bidirectional current flowing in this channel depending upon a wind driven sieche. Were two boats to be calling simultaneously, the vessel headed downstream would be the privileged vessel according to Great Lakes custom. (downbound over upbound).

[lenseman]

Originally Posted by davefromoregon

I have a pretty academic question. Imagine a narrow channel. Two ships on opposite direction courses. The both ships draw approximately the same amount and are constrained by depth. Neither is fishing. Neither is towing. It is not clear that the two vessels can easily pass at the narrowest point. How is it determined which is the stand on vessel? Is there a legally mandated protocol?

I suppose in reality, both skippers would be watching their AIS and would be on the radio sorting things out.

Neither is STAND ON VESSEL, Ring down, "Slow ahead" and show a red (ie Turn to Starboard.

[Capt. Mike Maurice]

Where danger of collision exists there is no right of way. The only rule that applies is to use all means necessary to avoid a collision. And, you had best assume that if a collision occurs you will found at least partly at fault.

All other considerations pale into insignificance.

[mstrebe]

Originally Posted by davefromoregon

I have a pretty academic question. Imagine a narrow channel. Two ships on opposite direction courses. The both ships draw approximately the same amount and are constrained by depth. Neither is fishing. Neither is towing. It is not clear that the two vessels can easily pass at the narrowest point. How is it determined which is the stand on vessel? Is there a legally mandated protocol?

I suppose in reality, both skippers would be watching their AIS and would be on the radio sorting things out.

It seems that you have indeed found a question with no single, simple answer that applies in all circumstances. Mostly, that's because this problem is both rare and highly variable: Where it does exist, local conditions vary dramatically. In other-words, each one of these situations is unique. In reality, I can't think of a single place in the world where International colregs would be the only governing rules--all of these non-inland-waterway situations are inside the international boundaries of a nation and therefore subject to local regulations.

Regarding current, narrows often have complex currents where both boats may be flowing with the current even in a head-on situation, so currents won't make any universal rule.

So the answer is this: read whatever local rules prevail and then contact the controlling port authority for specific instruction if those rules don't specifically address the situation.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by Capt. Mike Maurice

Where danger of collision exists there is no right of way. The only rule that applies is to use all means necessary to avoid a collision. And, you had best assume that if a collision occurs you will found at least partly at fault.

All other considerations pale into insignificance.

Given that the passing has devolved into collision avoidance what you say is fully true. e.g. The only rule that applies is to use all means necessary

However, in law (33 CFR § 83.09) and inland rule there exists a right-of-way. The only place that a right-of-way exists in inland rules.

Rule 9(a)(ii)

(ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) of this Rule and Rule 14(a) (§ 83.14(a)), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i) (§ 83.34(a)(i)), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing.

I know that we here on CF go off on people who use the old term right-of-way when the current rules talk about stand-on etc. And that is true and how the law intends it. Rule 9 and 14 as applied to western Rivers are the exception to the rule (no right-of-way).

In the case of "Western Rivers" there exists a right-of-way in law.

The 2 clauses of the CFR indicates that 1) a downbound vessel WITH a following current shall have a right-of-way. And that 2) The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing.

The point simply is that what you say is true (there is no absolute right-of way in all conditions).

However, on Western Rivers should there be a collision the downbound vessel will be judged by the action taken to avoid a collision (not by the assertion of their right-of-way) and the upbound vessel will be judged both on the actions they took to avoid a collision and (a big and) by the degree that they "hold as necessary to permit safe passing".

[Jimmyhenry]

This is common in the inside the reef passages around Fiji. The norm is a vhf call and the usual response is “ red to red”. ie: port to port. Never had a giveaway issue.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Capt. Mike Maurice

Where danger of collision exists there is no right of way. The only rule that applies is to use all means necessary to avoid a collision. And, you had best assume that if a collision occurs you will found at least partly at fault.

All other considerations pale into insignificance.

Yes and no

In some circumstances evasive action is not possible

In the end the accident investigation will determine the actions taken by the vessels and make a ruling

[sailr69]

there is a common sense and legal remedy to this, all vessels whether they are burden or not right of way or not must prevent a collision.

[JeanF73]

The plastic one stands
The steel one proceeds

Just my opinion

[Uricanejack]

It’s really quite simple.
Similar to any head on situation only without a lot of room.
Both vessels are give way and both should alter to starboard.
Both should be on their own side of the road just like a road.
If they are As close to the starboard side of the Chanel as is safe. Ideally they will not be head on.
When approaching a point where it’s to narrow for both vessels to pass safely.
The vessel with the current or stream behind her
Can’t stop so is stand on.
The vessel heading into the current or stream
can stop and wait and is the give way vessel

[chrisr]

WARNING : a little bit off topic (but only a little)

one of my pet hates is when two vessels are meeting end on . the rules say both alter to starbaord - right ?

how often do you find that you alter, and the other guy just blithely continues...makes no alteration of his own. annoys the hell out of me. sometimes worth a comment but usually the other guys either doesn't care or has no idea

also usually a big power boat...

GRRRRRR...

sorry - end of rant

cheers,

[tjsailing]

[QUOTE=Discovery 15797;3107360]Well, if you're familiar with Dodds Narrows...you'll know Rule 14's guidance is impractical. It's a 1 boat blind channel. If 2 40' boats meet in Dodds Narrows....it's highly likely someone's gettin' scratched. [/QUOTE
I have actually gone through dodds in a 40 foot sail boat with 2 boats in tow and a boat coming towards us - everyone kept to their own side and all made it safely - so long as you are travelking cautiously and not trying to barrel doen the center 2 boats truly can transit through - if the current is dicier I would be more hesitant but at or near slack it is fine.

[Lodesman]

Not to be too pedantic, but it's Dodd Narrows, not Dodds or Dodd's.
At its narrowest point the safe water is 60-70 yards wide - more than enough for two boats to pass.

[rslifkin]

When in doubt, always try to get in contact with the other vessel. If you can come up with a collective plan, it's always less stressful than just following the rules, hoping the other guy doesn't do anything dumb and trying to make it work.

On top of that, personally, if I can get in contact with them and I know my boat is more maneuverable than theirs, I'd offer to hold position and let them through first regardless of current direction, etc.