Rules of the road - entering a channel

[BlackHeron]

30k posts and still bloviating like a cavitated sausge.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Should caveat this by saying you have to be maintaining a steady heading too. A better method is to use a hand-bearing compass to observe compass-bearings of the other vessel.
I bolded the last bit, as I think this is poor advice. At a distance, where the Rules are not yet in effect, the bearing change of an observed vessel will be very slow, so it is not likely that you can determine that risk of collision exists. If you are closer, then depending on the rule(s) in effect, you should stand on, or give way with a substantial course/speed change - such that it would be easily observable to the other vessel.

I guess it depends on how carefully you pay attention to things. I can determine a collision course from miles away. Just by signing something through a piece of rigging. Maybe if someone isn’t very detail oriented, or can’t perceive a minute change, My advice would not work for them.

So much easier to do all of this stuff way in advance.

I can see that everybody disagrees with everyone else when it comes to these threads. I suppose we all have our own way of doing things. As long as we are complying with NAV rules, it doesn’t really matter I guess.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I guess it depends on how carefully you pay attention to things.

It has a lot more to do with than how careful you are. You yourself have to absolutely motionless - or at least able to ensure your eyeball is at the exact same vantage each time you assess the other vessel. Your vessel's heading has to be exactly the same each time you line up that stanchion or shroud. And beyond a few miles the bearing change rate of a vessel that will miss you by a small but reasonable amount (say 1/2 mile) will be very slow. As it gets closer, the change rate increases, but by then you'll be close enough that the rules should be in effect.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

Per the U.S. Supreme Court, a Right is NOT a Privilege.
All law abiding citizens have the Rights outlined in the Constitution, driving a vehicle on land or water is a Privilege and is not a guaranteed Right to anyone.
If we are going to argue semantics, let's get it correct.

Yes, let's

Mistake 1:
The statement was "A privilege is a right", not "A right is a privilege". Your argument is a strawman.
Compare "a dog is an animal" with "an animal is a dog".

Mistake 2:
Many here are not US citizens and the US Consititution has no bearing on us.
US Supreme Court opinions are irrelevant to International Rules.

Mistake 3:
A privilege is a right granted to a specific group or to persons under certain circumstances as opposed to a "universal right".

US
Merriam Webster dictionary:
Privilege
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : prerogative especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office

The rest of the World:
Oxford Dictionary:
Privilege:
A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

30k posts and still bloviating like a cavitated sausge.

Been here for several years and still throwing out gratuitous insults in lieu of reasoned argument and still failing to grasp fundamental concepts of god seamanship.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yes, let's

Mistake 1:
The statement was "A privilege is a right", not "A right is a privilege". Your argument is a strawman.
Compare "a dog is an animal" with "an animal is a dog".

Mistake 2:
Many here are not US citizens and the US Consititution has no bearing on us.
US Supreme Court opinions are irrelevant to International Rules.

Mistake 3:
A privilege is a right granted to a specific group or to persons under certain circumstances as opposed to a "universal right".

US
Merriam Webster dictionary:
Privilege
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : prerogative especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office

The rest of the World:
Oxford Dictionary:
Privilege:
A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

The whole point, which you conveniently ignore, is right and privilege are not equal. People on here get their panties in a wad over right of way, etc etc. Be consistent. If equal, then a privileged vessel has the right to maintain course/speed regardless, as it's their right? No? If it's their right, enter their right of way, No? Semantics, or misleading terminology. Be consistent

[thinwater]

Since I have never seen a sailboat (other than tall training ship) using the required "retrained by draft" day symbol, how would the other boat know this is true of your boat? We think it is obvious, but really, it is not. Even a good size sailboat can vary from 3-7 feet.



The other thing to consider is that many sailboats can leave the channel for most of its length, but chose not to because navigation will be come more complicated. There may be shallow spots. They are lining up for a harbor entrance and will thus have to return to the line at some point. If boats depart from the line to avoid other, the situation can gets complicated.


Thus, the best answer is usually to speed up or slow down to smooth this sort of merging. I'm amazed by how many sailors (all boaters) feel slowing down is hard. I have little draft and can generally ignore channels, but I don't if there is any traffic because of the confusion it causes. And that includes when I am quite sure that the other boats are not constrained by draft either. It is simply easier if we que up.


But to return to the original question, how do you KNOW that the other boat BELIEVES he is constrained by draft? Some sailors believe this is true any time they are following markers. Most often, it is only something they hold in their head.

[Shrew]

One thing to consider is based on the scope of the OP's situation. A vessel is entering the channel from Stbd at a 90 degree angle. Take all other arguments out of the equation.

1) Based on the intersecting angles, the vessel entering the channel is the stand-on vessel, while the vessel in the channel is the give way vessel.

2) if the vessel entering the channel at 90 degrees, can navigate there, they theoretically, you should be able to as well. Whether they are coming from a side channel, river, marina, fuel dock etc.

Therefore, the vessel in the channel should easily be able to make a stbd turn and pass the vessel entering at 90 degrees port to port. Once passed, the giveway vessel could trun back into the channel and continue.

I did that just this past weekend. The only issue was that the guy behind me wasn't paying attention, forcing me to giveway as he continued when I attempted to turn back into the channel again. The minute that I u-turned (I'm sure he didn't expect it and assumed I was a flake) I was now the stand-on vessel, while he decided he didn't give a damn.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

The whole point, which you conveniently ignore, is right and privilege are not equal.

In the context of the colregs, they are equal - in that they are equally wrong. The colregs don't give rights, nor privileges - they give obligations. You are required to get out of the way of the other vessel, or you are required to maintain your course and speed. Simple.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by thinwater

But to return to the original question, how do you KNOW that the other boat BELIEVES he is constrained by draft? Some sailors believe this is true any time they are following markers. Most often, it is only something they hold in their head.

I would consider it reasonable that, knowing the charted depths in an area, a vessel following a channel should be afforded that presumption. I may not know if a sailboat draws 4 feet or 7, but if the depths outside the channel are reasonably close, or shoals exists, then there is little place for a "but how was I to know?" argument. Rather, broad latitude should be given. In the unusual case of a 12 meter sailboat with a 4 meter draft, well, that is an argument for having the proper day-shape.

Strangely enough, I believe this was why the Inland Rules did not include the "constrained by draft" status, as there was fear it might be abused.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by RickG

This has been a challenge for us at two marinas with shallow channels. For both, I would do a securite' call regarding limited maneuverability. We got in trouble once when a 60+ foot charter motor vessel with a professional captain came out of their slip and did not see our 40-foot sailboat. He ran us aground while crewed charter captains were screaming at him from the dock. This happened so fast I had no time to reach for the horn. We had lots of help getting back in the channel and USCG was notified.

Cheers, RickG

This drifts just a little from the OP's post, because in his case both boats were well underway. But FWIW I think it is a stated rule that a docked sail or power vessel having limited manoeverability (for the situation at hand) should sound one long blast of their horn just as they begin to move, and do so understanding that they are obligated to keep clear of traffic already in a channel.
In the case of the OP, the vessel outside the channel has unlimited manoeverability unless special circumstances apply. OP did not state that the outside vessel's manoeverability was constrained by size, design, activity or other factors. The pilot of the outside vessel must not make any assumptions about the manoeverability of the vessel in the channel, and must assume that any vessel in the channel is to remain in right half of the channel at present speed until actually past last buoy.

Once past the last buoy, the vessel in the channel is obligated to keep clear of any vessel approaching on his starboard bow. This may require a full turn to starboard or a full stop, whatever is necessary.

And most importantly, if you are the stand-on vessel and the other vessel does not seem to be keeping his distance, then the onus is now on you to take action to avoid collision.

I believe these opinions, and that's all they are guys, are actually backed up by proper application of "rules". OK sea lawyers, what do you think?

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Shrew

1) Based on the intersecting angles, the vessel entering the channel is the stand-on vessel, while the vessel in the channel is the give way vessel.

2) if the vessel entering the channel at 90 degrees, can navigate there, they theoretically, you should be able to as well. Whether they are coming from a side channel, river, marina, fuel dock etc.

I think there are many cases where a motorboat draws far less than a sailing boat under power.

There is also the question of whether the crossing rule applies. Similarly, and to your case of making a u-turn, the crossing rules require that you are on a sufficiently constant course. Sitting in the water with a particular heading, or making a u-turn, is not exactly holding a course. If the vessel following you was confined to the channel, your stand-on claim would be somewhat shaky.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by waterman46

This drifts just a little from the OP's post, because in his case both boats were well underway. But FWIW I think it is a stated rule that a docked sail or power vessel having limited manoeverability (for the situation at hand) should sound one long blast of their horn just as they begin to move, and do so understanding that they are obligated to keep clear of traffic already in a channel.

That's only a rule in the Canadian and US Inland rules.

[waterman46]

I wish to make a small change to my previous post.

Originally Posted by waterman46

The pilot of the outside vessel must not make any assumptions about the maneuverability (strike that and replace with "draft") of the vessel in the channel, and must assume that any vessel in the channel is to remain in right half of the channel at present speed until actually past last buoy.

But I suppose this requirement would not hold up in court unless the vessel in the channel was flying the cylinder shape or the three red vertical lights.

[zboss]

Rule 2 Section B... ultimately regardless of the rules you have to make efforts not to collide.