Cruisers Forum
 


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-08-2020, 13:30   #61
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,420
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandInfedel View Post
If you’re in international waters, which they were, and a armed vessel is threatening to pull you out into conditions you don’t feel are safe, that’s a emergency everyday of the week, furthermore I would consider any person I didn’t authorize attempting to gain control of my boat (towing it to dangerous conditions would qualify) an attempted hijack.
This is just your opinion, nothing else.

For according to Tonga government, they were in Tonga territorial waters.


According to the blog, they were fishing there, which should not be done, given that the reef is within Tonga's fishery management zone.



Also 'the conditions you do not feel are safe' vs. unsafe conditions can be two different things. The blog clearly says it was fine next morning. I have checked backwards the weather data for this area and there were no hurricanes in that area at that time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E...cyclone_season


The boat had rigging damage and as such should be allowed to stay and fix. Which is what Tonga authorities granted.


The rest is our opinions.


Correct me if I misread something.



barnakiel
barnakiel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 13:48   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Depends on the month
Boat: 32’ Sloop
Posts: 264
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
This is just your opinion, nothing else.

For according to Tonga government, they were in Tonga territorial waters.


According to the blog, they were fishing there, which should not be done, given that the reef is within Tonga's fishery management zone.



Also 'the conditions you do not feel are safe' vs. unsafe conditions can be two different things. The blog clearly says it was fine next morning. I have checked backwards the weather data for this area and there were no hurricanes in that area at that time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E...cyclone_season


The boat had rigging damage and as such should be allowed to stay and fix. Which is what Tonga authorities granted.


The rest is our opinions.


Correct me if I misread something.



barnakiel

As the captain of my vessel if I deem the conditions are not safe I am charged with doing anything required to make safe my vessel and more over her crew.

Also Tonga wishing something so does not make it so, shy of some crazy ruling (which has not happened) it’s pretty obvious the reef is outside of their EEZ, thus international waters, their king or whatever can stomp his little feet and throw a fit, the measuring tool doesn’t care.

People really need to document all of these events with Tonga and put them up for the world to see.

Hopefully Australia will do something as they give Tonga these armed ships, and are due up arm Tonga with even more powerful ones very soon.
Even better maybe a more mature state could do a freedom of navigation exercise, with all that’s going on i doubt it would happen, but it would be great for a US warship could do this...I noticed in some Tonga training videos American troops were TRYING to teach their military how to shoot, so I guess the US has some interest here as well. It also shows if all else fails they seems to be pretty bad shots lol
IslandInfedel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 14:11   #63
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Legend 37.5, 1968 Alcort Sunfish, Avon 310
Posts: 2,749
Images: 11
Re: Right to safe harbour

Sometimes you run into law enforcement with attitude. I know a lot of good cops / border security/ etc worldwide, but I’ve also met my share with chips on the shoulder. The worst, sad to say, are NZ and AUS. I’ve even been in the position to mention that so-and-so was an AHole, with responses varying from “yup we all hate him” to “I’ll give him a talking to and a chore he won’t forget”.

Dealing with good cops / govt employees is delightful. Dealing with the jerks takes diplomacy, a skill one had better learn when traveling overseas...or in the local lake.
Tetepare is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 15:01   #64
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
Re: Right to safe harbour


Once more:


That is NOT the "current United Nations Convention".


It is a submission to the UN by the Kingdom of Tonga.
StuM is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 15:11   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Depends on the month
Boat: 32’ Sloop
Posts: 264
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare View Post
Sometimes you run into law enforcement with attitude. I know a lot of good cops / border security/ etc worldwide, but I’ve also met my share with chips on the shoulder. The worst, sad to say, are NZ and AUS. I’ve even been in the position to mention that so-and-so was an AHole, with responses varying from “yup we all hate him” to “I’ll give him a talking to and a chore he won’t forget”.

Dealing with good cops / govt employees is delightful. Dealing with the jerks takes diplomacy, a skill one had better learn when traveling overseas...or in the local lake.
Problem is the Tonga boat, unlike police, has ZERO legitimacy, the Tonga boat has as much authority to tell the cruiser to leave as the cruiser has the authority to tell the Tonga boat to leave. International waters
IslandInfedel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 15:20   #66
Registered User
 
AKA-None's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lake City MN
Boat: C&C 27 Mk III
Posts: 2,647
Re: Right to safe harbour

Anyone want to try this in the South China Sea?
__________________
Special knowledge can be a terrible disadvantage if it leads you too far along a path that you cannot explain anymore.
Frank Herbert 'Dune'
AKA-None is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 15:23   #67
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Depends on the month
Boat: 32’ Sloop
Posts: 264
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-None View Post
Anyone want to try this in the South China Sea?
US navy does it all the time.

Even a little private Cessna 206 did it.
IslandInfedel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 15:56   #68
Registered User
 
zboss's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: On a boat
Boat: 1987 Cabo Rico 38 #117 (sold) & 2008 Manta 42 #124
Posts: 4,172
Re: Right to safe harbour

Forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if Fiji or Tonga owns the islands. Either way we are guests of a foreign nation. If a foreign flagged Navy vessel from a nation like Fiji or Tonga which has reasonable laws and strong and fair international relations gives us what could be a lawful order, we will obey it. If it were a nation like North Korea, which is definitely not a friendly nation to American's, then we would have a problem and probably try to contact a vessel from a friendly nation for assist.

If we did get into trouble at sea it's likely that these fine Navy folks would be responding to our distress so we at least owe them to benefit of showing some courtesy and respect.
zboss is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 16:09   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Depends on the month
Boat: 32’ Sloop
Posts: 264
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboss View Post
Forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if Fiji or Tonga owns the islands. Either way we are guests of a foreign nation. If a foreign flagged Navy vessel from a nation like Fiji or Tonga which has reasonable laws and strong and fair international relations gives us what could be a lawful order, we will obey it. If it were a nation like North Korea, which is definitely not a friendly nation to American's, then we would have a problem and probably try to contact a vessel from a friendly nation for assist.

If we did get into trouble at sea it's likely that these fine Navy folks would be responding to our distress so we at least owe them to benefit of showing some courtesy and respect.
I’m not sure your experience with charts as well as the law, it’s a reef in international waters, look up what a EEZ is and fire up your charting software and measure for yourself.
That reef does not belong to Fiji, Tonga, or Texas for that matter.
Any threat from the Tonga boat is NOT a lawful order, I also don’t see a boat that is representing a nation, bullying little cruising sailboats out into conditions their captains determined as unsafe, as a “friendly” action.

Being forcefully towed into conditions dangerous to your vessel and her crew will kill you just as dead as a 7.62 round from a North Koreans rifle.

Lots of bad actions around the reefs, but its is not from the little cruising sailboats.
IslandInfedel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 18:03   #70
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,804
Re: Right to safe harbour

Fiji’s Lau Ridge, NZ’s Colville Ridge, and Tonga’s Tonga Ridge (including Pelorus Reef at 25m deep) all join up at Minerva Reefs. For either contiguous or continental shelf purposes, all three countries could claim the reefs.

NZ’s EEZ comes within 200 miles, while Fiji’s and Tonga’s EEZ overlap and have dotted lines (meaning disputed and unconfirmed claims) encompassing Minerva Reefs. Note that while generally EEZs go out up to 200 miles from a country’s coastline, that’s not hard and fast - many places will have extended EEZs due to geographic or political reasons. Check out American Samoa’s EEZ for an example.

Niuafo’ou is as far to the NW of the main Tongan island groups as Minerva Reefs is to the SW. We

Tonga does have a Fishery Special Management Area that includes Minerva Reefs and they do actively manage foreign fishing boats within that area. The reefs are relatively fragile and extended stays by cruisers with their gray (and black?) water discharge and fishing would not be healthy for the reefs’ ecology.

International waters? Generally doesn’t include dry(ish) land. Tonga asserts their jurisdiction and it isn’t ridiculous.

Regarding freedom of navigation, I don’t believe anyone other than Chinese Military has entered or anchored at any of the Spratly Islands since China has asserted their jurisdiction. The US Navy have sailed past, but not tried to drop an anchor AFAIK.

All a storm in a tea cup, as the yacht in question wasn’t forced to leave.
fxykty is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 18:20   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Depends on the month
Boat: 32’ Sloop
Posts: 264
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Fiji’s Lau Ridge, NZ’s Colville Ridge, and Tonga’s Tonga Ridge (including Pelorus Reef at 25m deep) all join up at Minerva Reefs. For either contiguous or continental shelf purposes, all three countries could claim the reefs.

NZ’s EEZ comes within 200 miles, while Fiji’s and Tonga’s EEZ overlap and have dotted lines (meaning disputed and unconfirmed claims) encompassing Minerva Reefs. Note that while generally EEZs go out up to 200 miles from a country’s coastline, that’s not hard and fast - many places will have extended EEZs due to geographic or political reasons. Check out American Samoa’s EEZ for an example.

Niuafo’ou is as far to the NW of the main Tongan island groups as Minerva Reefs is to the SW. We

Tonga does have a Fishery Special Management Area that includes Minerva Reefs and they do actively manage foreign fishing boats within that area. The reefs are relatively fragile and extended stays by cruisers with their gray (and black?) water discharge and fishing would not be healthy for the reefs’ ecology.

International waters? Generally doesn’t include dry(ish) land. Tonga asserts their jurisdiction and it isn’t ridiculous.

Regarding freedom of navigation, I don’t believe anyone other than Chinese Military has entered or anchored at any of the Spratly Islands since China has asserted their jurisdiction. The US Navy have sailed past, but not tried to drop an anchor AFAIK.

All a storm in a tea cup, as the yacht in question wasn’t forced to leave.
Maybe because forcing them to leave would be a crime?

Bit of friendly copying

I’d record the whole thing and this would be my one liner to all transmissions.

“I am a [insert nation] sailing vessel conducting lawful navigation outside national waters. I am operating with due regard as required under international law”

I might add “state intentions” to the end of it.
IslandInfedel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 18:33   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,420
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandInfedel View Post
As the captain of my vessel if I deem the conditions are not safe I am charged with doing anything required to make safe my vessel and more over her crew.

Also Tonga wishing something so does not make it so, shy of some crazy ruling (which has not happened) it’s pretty obvious the reef is outside of their EEZ, thus international waters, their king or whatever can stomp his little feet and throw a fit, the measuring tool doesn’t care.

People really need to document all of these events with Tonga and put them up for the world to see.

Hopefully Australia will do something as they give Tonga these armed ships, and are due up arm Tonga with even more powerful ones very soon.
Even better maybe a more mature state could do a freedom of navigation exercise, with all that’s going on i doubt it would happen, but it would be great for a US warship could do this...I noticed in some Tonga training videos American troops were TRYING to teach their military how to shoot, so I guess the US has some interest here as well. It also shows if all else fails they seems to be pretty bad shots lol

I will disagree.


You see my boat is only 26' but somehow where you are the captain of your vessel, I am only a skipper in a sailing boat.


Can't you truly see it is the ATTITUDE, not the fact, that pissed the Tongan navy ???


I did not see any crazy ruling in Tonga, but quite some of it in NZ and AUS.


You seem to be of low opinion of the Kingdom of Tonga and Tongan people. You think they seem bad shots.


I have been there seen that. Nicest nation under the sun. Educated, friendly (note the alt name of the islands - Friendly Islands).



Wonder why nobody called NZ a friendly island. Perhaps someone noted the attitude of some NZ cruisers before ?


barnakiel
barnakiel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 18:50   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Depends on the month
Boat: 32’ Sloop
Posts: 264
Re: Right to safe harbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I will disagree.


You see my boat is only 26' but somehow where you are the captain of your vessel, I am only a skipper in a sailing boat.


Can't you truly see it is the ATTITUDE, not the fact, that pissed the Tongan navy ???


I did not see any crazy ruling in Tonga, but quite some of it in NZ and AUS.


You seem to be of low opinion of the Kingdom of Tonga and Tongan people. You think they seem bad shots.


I have been there seen that. Nicest nation under the sun. Educated, friendly (note the alt name of the islands - Friendly Islands).



Wonder why nobody called NZ a friendly island. Perhaps someone noted the attitude of some NZ cruisers before ?


barnakiel
Captain/skipper, same difference

I don’t care about feelings.

Tonga has ZERO authority over that reef, they are using bully tactics to scare skippers/captains/dudes out of that reef and into conditions said skippers/captains/dudes concluded were dangerous because of weather/repairs/rest

So no I have zero respect for any nation who would do that.

The bad shots comes from the video, I’ll look for it, but they are shooting a large target at maybe 50 yards, lots of dramatic shots by the reporter but in the background you just hear a US voice saying “high” lol. That said in all fairness I’d wager they are not a gun culture and most of the kids didn’t learn to shoot from a young age

Yup here you go


Lots of some drill guy screaming and puffing his chest, but the guys, man, you can hear it in the US instructors voice, zero use of the sling to steady the weapon, I could go on, but really it seems based on this video and the recordings on their “navy” at the reef, they are mostly bravado
IslandInfedel is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 19:12   #74
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Innisfail, Queensland
Boat: Roberts 57 Schooner
Posts: 128
Re: Right to safe harbour

Sure, the Tongans claim the reef as theirs. Whether we agree with this or not is irrelevant when out there on the big ocean with limited communications and no international court of law at hand.

I think the point of this discussion should be about decency and common sense.

Decency:
The skipper felt he needed refuge. He knows his limits, he knows the limits of his vessel and he knows the limits of his crew. It is his responsibility to keep his vessel and crew safe. Period. The vessel is a pleasure vessel with no nefarious purpose. It presented no risk whatsoever to Tonga's safety or sovereignty.

Common sense:
Someone in a comfortable office somewhere in Tonga ordered the patrol boat to remove the vessel from what they consider Tongan territory because they received a memo informing them to do the necessary to keep COVID away from their borders. Everyone in the chain, from the patrol boat captain all the way up to the guy in an office who rejected the request for refuge knew that ejecting a boat from a reef in the middle of the ocean does absolutely nothing towards protecting Tonga from COVID. The captain of the patrol boat, as a mariner, also knew very well that it was morally wrong to place someone in a potentially dangerous situation.

The request went up the chain in Tonga and the person at the end of this chain acted like a tool and rejected the request for refuge on a nonsensical basis. This might have been some nobody in an office, it might have been the King himself.

Fact:
We can not do anything about this when out there in international waters. If we pick a fight with a navy vessel, in words or worse, we are going to lose every time. Our only recourse is to make noise about this sort of bureaucratic BS behaviour. It can not be condoned and Tonga should be called out on it.
pwillems is offline  
Old 13-08-2020, 19:32   #75
Registered User
 
SV DINGO's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Melbourne
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 192
Images: 1
Re: Right to safe harbour

i have not yet heard one argument here so i like to put it into the pot.

Except for the FLARE , what type of weapons did the NZ boat carry????

I always find that when you are in the middle of nowhere the common sense rule should be applied and to me that means , who has the bigger boat with the bigger firepower and do i feel i want to challenge a patrol boat with more engine power , most likely built in steel not wood with a machine gun at the front in my 50 year old wooden boat?????????

In this case you just got a stupid kiwi with a **** attitude which thought that NZ Flag is superior to all others. Sadly a mistake that not only Kiwi's make from time to time.
SV DINGO is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Petition for the safe harbour in Eden NSW Jim Cate General Sailing Forum 48 02-06-2020 22:15
"fail safe" Ground Isolators... is unmonitored really safe? Rowglide Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 6 12-11-2017 15:34
Which Catamaran is Right for You, Right for Me? betachz Multihull Sailboats 28 01-01-2009 10:23
no right way, right? unbusted67 Seamanship & Boat Handling 4 16-12-2006 18:10
Coffs Harbour (NSW Australia) Quincofish Marinas 2 29-03-2003 19:48

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.