Poll for Professional Masters and Mates (over 500 tonnes)

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by NSboatman

Nice- Halifax class, and the old oiler. Preserver?

Both soon to be replaced!

...maybe. If our gubmint can get their **** together...

It is Preserver and Ottawa in the photo. Training tenders (already replaced) in the bottom pic.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I don't think any professional sets out to be a bad watchkeepr , but laziness and cynicism sets in to some whose motivation is low.

Then bad habits develop , poor lookout practices and they do become a liability to the Master.

I have had to remove a few in my time

Absolutely true!. I'll add that there are some who just don't get it - don't have the aptitude, spacial recognition, whatever it is - they're unable to understand the relative motion between vessels and how the rules should play into it. They're not stupid people - they pass the exams and orals, but can't seem to put the book knowledge into practice.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

An interesting follow up question to those answering with the first choice: when motor sailing, do you display the cone? (Presuming those 500t Masters also go out sailing now and then).

Yes I do.

[DefinitelyMe]

I find it regrettably unsurprising that the responses from professional mariners have often been angry, aggressive and not constructive.

Reading between the lines, I think there must be a clear bias toward North American operators in the responses. The viewpoints expressed do not match up with my experiences with how things generally work in most of the rest of the world.

Interesting thread.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by DefinitelyMe

I find it regrettably unsurprising that the responses from professional mariners have often been angry, aggressive and not constructive.

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to - we tend to chide each other with a little more vigour as we expect more out of each other. Most of us (I think) try to constructively answer honest queries.

Reading between the lines, I think there must be a clear bias toward North American operators in the responses. The viewpoints expressed do not match up with my experiences with how things generally work in most of the rest of the world.

Curious why you think that? Just from the few who've posted or polled, we've got worldwide representation.

[Trond123]

Interesting poll and a surprising result so far (6 follow Colreg and 2 get away, when I posted this)

I'm not professional, but a powerboater.

Would be very nice if those who voted "get out of my way" would explain why they prefer us recreational boaters to not follow colreg? Won't this confuse you with more or less unpredictable actions?

I always follow colreg, no matter if the other vessel is commercial or not.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Pandor

What kind of license do you hold? I've never experienced any merchant mariners that describe the size of our ships in displacement. That is usually the Navy or the Coast Guard.

Actually, displacement is what we are talking about professionally! At least for cargo vessels.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Trond123

Would be very nice if those who voted "get out of my way" would explain why they prefer us recreational boaters to not follow colreg? Won't this confuse you with more or less unpredictable actions?

Indeed it would be.

Originally Posted by MartinR

Actually, displacement is what we are talking about professionally! At least for cargo vessels.

Martin, would you care to answer Trond's question? Thanks

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Indeed it would be.


Martin, would you care to answer Trond's question? Thanks

This is a little complicated. When I am sailing a yacht, I tend to avoid cargo vessels. I just do a very clear course change long before they are even thinking about it. My reason is that steel is much stronger than fiberglass. This does not apply when racing of course

Normally cargo vessels can not see a yacht until they are fairly close, often within 2NM. Especially nighttime, the green lights are very hard to make out. Same goes for RADAR, sailboats do not show up well when a sea is running. Ships have much stronger navigation lights and are visible from at least 6NM out, so the sailboat can act much earlier than the cargo vessel. Just common sense. And when the vessels are close and time is short, things have a tendency to become exiting. Better to not get into this situation.

Normally when we are on a collision course with another cargo vessel, we take action 4-6NM out. That is long before we would spot a sailboat.

If the sailboat does not take action in good time, then I much prefer they keep their course and speed.

Visibility is also much better from a sailing boat. Especially nighttime. On a ship, we look at the world through 20mm glass and are surrounded by a multitude of screens and lamps. Not good for night vision.

So here is my short take. If you are on a sailboat, take action early, because you can not be sure to be seen later. Then the cargo ship will happily continue on it's way, unaware that there was a situation. If you are getting reasonably close, stand on, the ship will (probably) do something. And please, do things old-fashioned. Forget CPAs and so on. Do clear course changes, ideally presenting the other side/light.

I do not say, that standing on is wrong in any way, but by taking action early, situations need never to arise.

BTW, when I am sailing a Tall Ship, which is basically as visible as a cargo ship, I stand on, because I know I will be seen.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by MartinR

If the sailboat does not take action in good time, then I much prefer they keep their course and speed.

...
If you are getting reasonably close, stand on,

...

I do not say, that standing on is wrong in any way, but by taking action early, situations need never to arise.

IOW, you actually support Option 1 but you voted for Option 2.

[Trond123]

Originally Posted by MartinR

This is a little complicated. When I am sailing a yacht, I tend to avoid cargo vessels. I just do a very clear course change long before they are even thinking about it. My reason is that steel is much stronger than fiberglass. This does not apply when racing of course[emoji3]

Normally cargo vessels can not see a yacht until they are fairly close, often within 2NM. Especially nighttime, the green lights are very hard to make out. Same goes for RADAR, sailboats do not show up well when a sea is running. Ships have much stronger navigation lights and are visible from at least 6NM out, so the sailboat can act much earlier than the cargo vessel. Just common sense. And when the vessels are close and time is short, things have a tendency to become exiting. Better to not get into this situation.

Normally when we are on a collision course with another cargo vessel, we take action 4-6NM out. That is long before we would spot a sailboat.

If the sailboat does not take action in good time, then I much prefer they keep their course and speed.

Visibility is also much better from a sailing boat. Especially nighttime. On a ship, we look at the world through 20mm glass and are surrounded by a multitude of screens and lamps. Not good for night vision.

So here is my short take. If you are on a sailboat, take action early, because you can not be sure to be seen later. Then the cargo ship will happily continue on it's way, unaware that there was a situation. If you are getting reasonably close, stand on, the ship will (probably) do something. And please, do things old-fashioned. Forget CPAs and so on. Do clear course changes, ideally presenting the other side/light.

I do not say, that standing on is wrong in any way, but by taking action early, situations need never to arise.

BTW, when I am sailing a Tall Ship, which is basically as visible as a cargo ship, I stand on, because I know I will be seen.

Martin, as I read your post, it appears you want recreational vessels to actually follow the Colregs.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Normally cargo vessels can not see a yacht until they are fairly close, often within 2NM. Especially nighttime, the green lights are very hard to make out. Same goes for RADAR, sailboats do not show up well when a sea is running. Ships have much stronger navigation lights and are visible from at least 6NM out, so the sailboat can act much earlier than the cargo vessel. Just common sense. And when the vessels are close and time is short, things have a tendency to become exiting. Better to not get into this situation.

Normally when we are on a collision course with another cargo vessel, we take action 4-6NM out. That is long before we would spot a sailboat.

If the sailboat does not take action in good time, then I much prefer they keep their course and speed.

Thanks for your perspective. Certainly some valid points. Navlights on small boats have frequently been discussed here and many upgrade to more visible lights. Certainly AIS and active radar transponders aid in making small vessels more visible - with that in mind would you veer more towards the first option?
Do you have a "rule of thumb" suggestion for what you see as the range at which they should start keeping course and speed?

If you don't mind me asking, what and where do you "drive" professionally?

[Trond123]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Do you have a "rule of thumb" suggestion for what you see as the range at which they should start keeping course and speed?

From my perspective, I try to do my give way actions between 5-8NM. (It helps that I use both radar and AIS 24/7).

As a recreational boater, if I am the stand on vessel, I think that if the commercial vessel has "failed" to give way when the distance (in open waters) is less than 2-3NM, then I am free to take evasive actions myself.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Actually, displacement is what we are talking about professionally! At least for cargo vessels.

Yes, displacement is what affects turning circle , stopping distance.

If you are over 500 tons and in class you should have a maneuverability sheet showing that data for all speeds plus a wheel over chart

[Pelagic]

I think this Visibility concern from a small boat perspective is worth reviewing as it seems to affect MartinR's mindset which is a common fear of most small boat operators .

So how would I manage this concern from my own yacht?

Use AIS/ active transponder
Upgrade to 6nm nav lights
If starting to have doubts, shine
your spotlight repeatedly on the headsail.
Still concerned, call on VHF to confirm intentions.
With sufficient time, take evasive action acording to the rules with use of engine if necessary

Most commercial bridges are fitted with S band radars, so we can tune our sea and rain clutter more easily to see small targets.

don't worry, if the WK is doing his job, he will see you