Permit regulations by country

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We were talking about boats, not radios

If you want to keep going, you can mention that the unfortunate Brits must have passports to go abroad, too. You don't get away with no documentation, just regarding the boat Nor no taxes, unfortunately. And you have to register for the NHS . . . and as of today, if you run a restaurant, you can't serve olive oil in a dish -- you have to serve it in a one-portion sealed container -- latest EU ruling -- sorry I left all that out in my original answer!

But the boat, qua boat, is free of documentary requirements, as is the skipper, qua skipper (if not, unfortunately qua UK citizen )

You don't need an operators license for boats longer than 15m or faster than 20km/h ?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You don't need an operators license for boats longer than 15m or faster than 20km/h ?

of course not, this is the UK were are talking about, once you are below 24m ( and there is a tonnage restriction)


The same is true for Ireland also. ( since the rule book was basically copied!!)

dave

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You don't need an operators license for boats longer than 15m or faster than 20km/h ?

Nope.

Over 13.7 meters, some Mickey-Mouse SOLAS regulations come into force, like radar reflectors, signals, passage planning (not necessarily written down!). I'm not aware of any requirements of documentation; see: SOLAS V Regulations | Pleasure Craft Regulations | Regulations | Information & Advice | RYA

The next set of regulation come into force only after 24 meters load line length, and 80 gross tons. I'm not sure what's required after that.

In the UK, boats are like guns in the US -- a God-given right, which the state has no right to interfere with, with taxes, or papers of any kind. My kind of country

[goboatingnow]

SOLAS V is applicable to all craft I believe, not just those over 13.7m

'm not aware of any requirements of documentation;

An illustrated table describing the life-saving signals* shall be readily available to the officer of the watch of every ship to which this chapter applies. The signals shall be used by ships or persons in distress when communicating with lifesaving stations, maritime rescue units and aircraft engaged in search and rescue operations.

You have your SOLAS V table dont you Dockhead!!!.. Ive mine from a handout in YM!

In the UK, boats are like guns in the US -- a God-given right, which the state has no right to interfere with, with taxes, or papers of any kind. My kind of country

Every country has the equivalent to 'guns' in the US, rather like no speed limits on German autobahns, etc.

dave

[Kettlewell]

It's too complicated to explain for the USA as each state is slightly different in terms of taxes, registration, fees, and safety certificates. Even Alabama's so-called license is about the same thing as the safety certificate required in other states. Taxes are all over the place too. No sales tax on boats in Rhode Island, but a high annual registration fee.

I would say you could generalize this for most (but not all) states: when you purchase a boat there is generally a sales tax ranging roughly from 5% to around 9%, the boat must be either federally documented (about $100 one time fee) or state registered (fees vary from $20-$150 per year), in many states there are also local property taxes to pay that can be significant or small (but many have none), in most states you need a safety certificate that is a one-time fee ($20-$50). Some areas have harbor fees or excise taxes that must be paid each year (Massachusetts).

[bgallinger]

I don't see Canada on your list, but a card certifying competency is required. It's easy...do it on line in 20 minutes.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by xpfenech

I find it interesting because each country has different rules for their home citizens, and seems to me that those countries that have cheaper obligations (time and money) have developed the reacreational boat industry, and those that have more expensive obligations, are lagging much behind.

A very wise observation, which applies to nearly all branches of commercial activity, recreational boating being just one.

It's noticeable that common law countries (US, UK and others) by default allow activities of any sort to evolve, and only control them with legislation if a need is perceived (rightly or wrongly!)

While countries with codified law (such as those which inherited the Napoleonic code - France, Greece and many southern Europe countries) expect existing law to control to all activites - being modifed and extended as needed.

There was an interesting era in Greece when windsurfers first were invented. Did they come under sailing dinghy rules? or canoe rules? Each set of rules were different, and both had requirements impossible to implement on a windsurfer (carrying a buoyancy ring with rope attached; flying a flag of registration on a mast clearly visible at all times). Of course, those under 2.4m could be classified as beach toys; in which case, if commercially used, they must be accompanied by an orange safety boat and only approach and leave the beach through specified safety lanes . . .

This type of legislation is particularly onerous in Portugal when applyied to small powered craft, such as inflatable dinghies powered by an outboard. Rules for yacht tenders are different from rules for shore based craft.

Maximum distance permitted from mother craft for a tender is small, often less than an anchoring distance from the shore. And the tender must be clearly marked as part of the mother ship.

Going from shore spot to shore spot is not an appropriate use for a tender. To do this, a vessel must be independently registered with a category, determined by the range of equipment carried. And that shows how far it may travel from shore base.

So "the rules" in various countries can result in un-expected fines for visiting yachtsmen, even if they don't apply to the yacht.

And has been pointed out, they can stunt creative development

[goboatingnow]

Yet sailing in the UK as compared to France is tiny. The UK falls well below France on boats per head of population. ( Norway is the world leader)

Equally the rules in France for example are less then many US states. France has no competency requirements for sail craft , low taxes ( mainly a form of light dues )

What is the main driver of activity is the huge government involvement in France in the sport with fabulous state supplied or supported marinas , training facilities , sponsorship etc.

Hence your opening remarks are not supported by the facts. ( the US sailboat ownership ratios are very poor ) So called free enterprise doesn't result in a bigger leisure market.


Sailing and sail boat production is huge in Europe , far far bigger then the UK or the US, yet its an area that has a reasonable amount of rules. so it would seem that once rules remain ' reasonable ' participation occurs.

I am personally in favour of mandatory competence certification , I would support the worldwide adoption of the ICC as a base for such competency.

Dave
Dave

[conachair]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I am personally in favour of mandatory competence certification , I would support the worldwide adoption of the ICC as a base for such competency.

[carstenb]

Denmark

Sailboats - no license/certificates etc until boat is over 24 meters (sailing in home waters)

Speedboats (license if over 25HK (actually a different rule , but very complicated to explain)

Taxes - VAT 25% when purchasing new, 1.34% of the the insured value of the boat (boat insured for USD 100k - tax = 1340 dollars)

[pupuce]

For France
- recreational sailing boats: no licence
- recreational power boats: licence (2 kinds: coastal & offshore / cost about 500 euros)
- inland waterways: specific licence & annual tax
- charter needs a merchant navy qualification (STWC 98), at least captain 200
Taxes:
When puchasing a new boat: VAT (except professional use, as charter)
When purchasing a used boat: no tax, if VAT already paid
Annual Tax: in accordance with length, engine power and oldness of the ship

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by conachair

indeed, but as always , a fair an reasonable debate follows on CF

dave

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yet sailing in the UK as compared to France is tiny. The UK falls well below France on boats per head of population. ( Norway is the world leader) . . . .

. . . Hence your opening remarks are not supported by the facts. ( the US sailboat ownership ratios are very poor ) So called free enterprise doesn't result in a bigger leisure market. . .

I'm afraid your statistics are all wrong. French people own 600,000 recreational boats, of which about 150,000 are sailboats. France

UK people own about 600,000 boats, too, but about 300,000 are sailboats. UK

Population of the two countries are almost exactly the same, so sailboat ownership in the UK is about double that in France.

It's true that Norway has a high official boat ownership rate -- 1:7; but its the same in Sweden. Key market Facts. There are only 45,000 sailboats in Norway, and it's questionable whether the statistics are comparable, as Norway's boat statistics include windsurfers and other vessels which might not be considered "boats" in other countries. Norway. Besides that, Norway is a tiny country, only 5 million people, where practically the whole population lives on the coast, so hard to compare with large countries like the UK and France with about 60 million each, and with mostly inland populations.

In total numbers, the U.S. exceeds the rest of the world combined in recreational boat ownership -- 17 million (!). USA
There are 1.6 million registered sailboats in the U.S., http://nmma.net/assets/cabinets/Cabi...ct_preview.pdf, so the rate of ownership is a little over 0.5%. This is less than the UK, which is the world leader as far as I know in sailboat ownership among large countries -- 0.8% (incidentally almost the same as the rate in Norway). But the sailboat ownership rate in the U.S. is quite a bit higher than France, which is about 0.4%.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

SOLAS V is applicable to all craft I believe, not just those over 13.7m



An illustrated table describing the life-saving signals* shall be readily available to the officer of the watch of every ship to which this chapter applies. The signals shall be used by ships or persons in distress when communicating with lifesaving stations, maritime rescue units and aircraft engaged in search and rescue operations.

You have your SOLAS V table dont you Dockhead!!!.. Ive mine from a handout in YM!



Every country has the equivalent to 'guns' in the US, rather like no speed limits on German autobahns, etc.

dave

A table of life saving signals is a document! ROTFLMAO!! You spoiled Brit, you! Ha, ha, ha! I used to have to stand in line every year in the U.S. to re-register my bloody 16 foot sailing dinghy, and pay the fees!!! And present the registration certificate when stopped by the usually unfriendly water cops (yes, I was regularly stopped and inspected in my little dinghy!)! And maintain the registration number on both sides of the bows! You have no idea how good you have it in old Blighty, which is truly a sailor's paradise!!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A table of life saving signals is a document! ROTFLMAO!! You spoiled Brit, you! Ha, ha, ha! I used to have to stand in line every year in the U.S. to re-register my bloody 16 foot sailing dinghy, and pay the fees!!! And present the registration certificate when stopped by the usually unfriendly water cops (yes, I was regularly stopped and inspected in my little dinghy!)! And maintain the registration number on both sides of the bows! You have no idea how good you have it in old Blighty, which is truly a sailor's paradise!!

Whinging Pom's mate... just whinging Pom's