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Old 10-11-2020, 06:42   #1
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Met a cargo ship with no ais?

So I was on my way into the Chesapeake-delaware canal this morning. I was keeping a pretty close eye on AIS since I didn't really want to meet a big cargo carrier at the entrance, so I was quite surprised to see one as it rounded reedy island. A close look confirmed they were definitely not broadcasting their position on AIS. That's the first time I've ever seen one not broadcasting, and my understanding is those ships are required to by law.

I hailed them on the radio. No response on 16, but they answered on 13. I asked if they were aware they weren't broadcasting, and captain said they were aware. Didn't get any more info than that, so I'm just super curious about it. Equipment failure maybe? Any other guesses?

The ship was probably about 300 feet, carrying containers, and under way out the delaware Bay
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:02   #2
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

That should be an immediate Securite warning to all ships and to make coast guard aware.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:23   #3
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

This one didn't either. A couple of years back half way from Azores to Ireland..
ps, and there was other one tanker completely dark even without any navigation light at night close to Klein Curacao. We were a few cables away when they suddenly turned on all deck lights.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:39   #4
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

Which is, of course, one reason why you want to keep the old Mk I eyeball working, and not rely too heavily on electronics to tell you what is happening around you.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:47   #5
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

Thats why radar is nice. Hard to turn off a radar return on a 300' long steel target.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:55   #6
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

Should be mentioned I suppose that it was daylight and visibility was fine. I didn't end up uncomfortably close to this ship or anything, I was just super surprised to see one not broadcasting, and a little peeved since I specifically waited till that moment to head to the canal entrance since I expected it to be clear...

But yeah, the old eyeball did manage to identify it in good time
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:33   #7
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace View Post
So I was on my way into the Chesapeake-delaware canal this morning. I was keeping a pretty close eye on AIS since I didn't really want to meet a big cargo carrier at the entrance, so I was quite surprised to see one as it rounded reedy island. A close look confirmed they were definitely not broadcasting their position on AIS. That's the first time I've ever seen one not broadcasting, and my understanding is those ships are required to by law.

I hailed them on the radio. No response on 16, but they answered on 13. I asked if they were aware they weren't broadcasting, and captain said they were aware. Didn't get any more info than that, so I'm just super curious about it. Equipment failure maybe? Any other guesses?

The ship was probably about 300 feet, carrying containers, and under way out the Delaware Bay
That's a definite case for "take down their ID and call the Coast Guard," as this constitutes a hazard to navigation.
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:38   #8
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

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Originally Posted by BugzyCan View Post
That should be an immediate Securite warning to all ships and to make coast guard aware.
+1 on that!

I would have immediately broadcast a security and if the Coast Guard didn’t do anything right away I would’ve called them directly also.

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Old 10-11-2020, 08:47   #9
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

During summer of 2017 that I spent up in Gulf of ST Lawrence, we often noticed ships without AIS. Fishing boats definitely as one can understand. I also saw a car ferry and even a coast guard vessel without AIS showing. Agreed radar still needed.
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:47   #10
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

AIS systems can fail and do fail. There is normally no redundancy on commercial vessels, as this is not considered and essential systems. He will get service in the next port and it is fixed. Where is the problem? You could see the ship.

In fog you can see them on RADAR. AIS maybe enhances safety, but mostly it enhances communication. If you want to talk to another ship, you can call it by name. Collision avoidance is done by RADAR plotting, ARPA or plain optical, not by AIS.
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:55   #11
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

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Originally Posted by Ardbeg View Post
During summer of 2017 that I spent up in Gulf of ST Lawrence, we often noticed ships without AIS. Fishing boats definitely as one can understand. I also saw a car ferry and even a coast guard vessel without AIS showing. Agreed radar still needed.
As I understand it (and I may be wrong), unfortunately, fishing vessels in the USA are not required to have AIS though I definitely think that they should.

U.S. Coast Guard vessel‘s are not required to use AIS since they are military, but a car carrier should definitely have his AIS turned on.

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Old 10-11-2020, 08:56   #12
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post
AIS systems can fail and do fail. There is normally no redundancy on commercial vessels, as this is not considered and essential systems. He will get service in the next port and it is fixed. Where is the problem? You could see the ship.
Exactly. In the US, 33 CFR 164.53 specifically addresses and allows this:

Quote:
§ 164.53 Deviations from rules and reporting: Non-operating equipment.

(a) If during a voyage any equipment required by this part stops operating properly, the person directing the movement of the vessel may continue to the next port of call, subject to the directions of the District Commander or the Captain of the Port, as provided by part 160 of this chapter.

(b) If the vessel's automatic identification system (AIS), radar, radio navigation receivers, gyrocompass, echo depth sounding device, or primary steering gear stops operating properly, the person directing the movement of the vessel must report or cause to be reported that it is not operating properly to the nearest Captain of the Port, District Commander, or, if participating in a Vessel Traffic Service.
Furthermore, if they are carrying certain cargoes or for other reasons:

Quote:
(v) For those vessels denoted in paragraph (b) of this section, the continual operation of AIS and its associated devices (e.g., positioning system, gyro, converters, displays) at all times while the vessel is underway or at anchor, and, if moored, at least 15 minutes prior to getting underway; except when its operation would compromise the safety or security of the vessel or a security incident is imminent. The AIS should be returned to continuous operation as soon as the compromise has been mitigated or the security incident has passed. The time and reason for the silent period should be recorded in the ship's official log and reported to the nearest Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center (VTC).
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:56   #13
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Which is, of course, one reason why you want to keep the old Mk I eyeball working, and not rely too heavily on electronics to tell you what is happening around you.

++1 Seen tugs w/o AIS several times, but the best ship w/o AIS was off Charleston. It was a military vessel doing 30+ kts at night that eventually came along side of us (~200 yds). It also had no radar return.

We saw running lights behind us and just assumed it was another freighter. Most of the freighters we had seen up to that point were running 13-19kts, so was very surprised how quickly this unknown boat was catching up to us while doing 7-8 kts. Needless to say this was one of those wow moments.

Bottom line, the electronics didn't see it, so keep an eye out (not glued to the screen). This is why they call it a watch.
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:03   #14
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post
AIS systems can fail and do fail. There is normally no redundancy on commercial vessels, as this is not considered and essential systems. He will get service in the next port and it is fixed. Where is the problem? You could see the ship.

In fog you can see them on RADAR. AIS maybe enhances safety, but mostly it enhances communication. If you want to talk to another ship, you can call it by name. Collision avoidance is done by RADAR plotting, ARPA or plain optical, not by AIS.
Really? And yet the USCG might take a different view:

"(b) AIS carriage.

(1) AIS Class A device. The following vessels must have on board a properly installed, operational USCG Type-approved* AIS Class A device:

(i) A self-propelled vessel of 65 feet or more in length, engaged in commercial service.

(ii) A towing vessel of 26 feet or more in length and more than 600 horsepower, engaged in commercial service.

(iii) A self-propelled vessel that is certificated to carry more than 150 passengers.

(iv) A self-propelled vessel engaged in dredging operations in or near a commercial channel or shipping fairway in a manner likely to restrict or affect navigation of other vessels.

(v) A self-propelled vessel engaged in the movement of –

(A) Certain dangerous cargo as defined in subpart C of part 160 of this chapter, or

(B) Flammable or combustible liquid cargo in bulk that is listed in 46 CFR 30.25–1, Table 30.25–1."
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:21   #15
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Re: Met a cargo ship with no ais?

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Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace View Post
So I was on my way into the Chesapeake-delaware canal this morning. I was keeping a pretty close eye on AIS since I didn't really want to meet a big cargo carrier at the entrance, so I was quite surprised to see one as it rounded reedy island. A close look confirmed they were definitely not broadcasting their position on AIS. That's the first time I've ever seen one not broadcasting, and my understanding is those ships are required to by law.

I hailed them on the radio. No response on 16, but they answered on 13. I asked if they were aware they weren't broadcasting, and captain said they were aware. Didn't get any more info than that, so I'm just super curious about it. Equipment failure maybe? Any other guesses?

The ship was probably about 300 feet, carrying containers, and under way out the delaware Bay

Automatic identification system- AIOS - is designed to utilize with identifying targets on a radar- not stand alone. They do fail, for a number of reasons, and often when the transmitting side fails it is unknown until noted by another's receiver.
Do not expect any security or other announcements. Not required and quite often not desired.
If parts or service is not obtainable in a port, the vessel gets a letter of deviation to a destination that can service the unit.
Among the complexities of the unit, the lack of transmission may be because of corrupted input info, meaning that AIS receiver is fine but will not transmit if gyro, gps, and other inputs are not accurate.

for all its usefulness and communication, unfortunately recreational vessels tend to install in lieu of radar because of simplicity, education , and price. This results in expectations that are not realistic nor safe, but it is life.
This is why the rules explicitly say utilize more than one method for navigation.
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