Dual citizen complications

[WouldBeMariner]

Hello everyone,
I'm retired and contemplating blue water cruising. I used to sail in the Persian Gulf in my youth, but that was when the Shah was in control, so it has been a while
So I'm taking lessons and doing lots of research, but I seem to have hit a complication -

I am a dual citizen (US and UK) and presently live in Florida. The old, well really quite old, 13.5metre boat I have my eye on is in the UK (Wales actually) and needs a refit. I'm well aware that refits turn into extensive refits whatever the vendors say and I'm prepared for the needed survey and consequent financial issues.

The boat is VAT paid, built in England many years ago and presently bears the Red Duster. So as a UK citizen I can quickly establish UK residence without any problem and complete the purchase as an all-UK deal without any tax or duty problems. And since the boat is already on the hard the refit can go ahead under my supervision, it costs no more to live in Wales than to live in Florida. I figure six months, subject to revision of course.

So my question is this - if I get a couple of equally crazy people to join me long distance cruising, and the winds take us eventually to Florida (via lots of really pleasant places) then perhaps I have a problem with Uncle Sam?!

As a US citizen and Florida resident I can't get a visa to visit the US. But as the boat, of which I will be the master, is foreign flagged (foreign that is from the New World perspective, but it actually flies the Red Ensign) can I get a cruising permit for a stay of a few months in Florida? And do I have to check in with immigration? A complication is that the port nearest my home (Fort Myers Beach, FL) has no customs and stuff - that is done at the airport RSW a dozen miles away. (As an aside that is a problem in itself as you are supposed to present yourself within 24hours, but their office is closed for 96+ hours at a stretch!).

Or is a US citizen and US resident (resident? former resident?) even allowed to own a UK flagged pleasure boat that spends most of its time "overseas". Wow, that sounds good to say "OVERSEAS". "OVERSEAS", I like that

Any comments would be appreciated. It's never too late to learn and I've already overcome the biggest problem in taking up sailing again (admitting that there are problems).

[ccannan]

I'm not sure I know the answers to your questions. However, I'm not sure why you'd buy a boat in the UK. I can't imagine you can't find a similar boat (maybe not the same make and model) in the USA. The purchase price, taxes, and any refit will be less that doing it in the UK. So unless you are absolutely hooked on this boat, and really want to patronize the UK boat refit market I'd look around FL.

[Adelie]

My guess is that the US is more interested in the people than the boat.

You need to arrive and check in at a Port of Entry whether you are a US citizen or a foreign national. Once here, as a resident, the US shouldn't want to keep track of you. So there will be no permit required for you or any US crew.

The 3-letter agencies won't want to keep track of the boat, but they will want to assess customs if the boat remains in the US longer than a certain period. This could involve big money. I think this is where you want to concentrate your research.

[ccannan]

Absolutely correct. If you import the boat into the USA, you will have to pay a tax. Then you will have to contend with registering the boat where you intend to use it. I think FL is pretty adamant that any boat in FL waters for more than 90 days, is required to register in FL. Registration is just another tax.

[WouldBeMariner]

Originally Posted by ccannan

Absolutely correct. If you import the boat into the USA, you will have to pay a tax. Then you will have to contend with registering the boat where you intend to use it. I think FL is pretty adamant that any boat in FL waters for more than 90 days, is required to register in FL. Registration is just another tax.

Yes, I understand that.
Making Florida a call during a circumnavigation is what I had in mind. If 90 days is the limit imposed by Florida then a 83 or so days' visit it shall be.

But does the boat need a US cruising permit? Even if the people aboard do not (US citizens)?
Pardon my ignorance, I've never done anything like this before and I'm not sure how it works. The boats I see in Fort Myers are all US flagged (with the odd Canadian). I did see one, I think St. Kitts, but I've never seen anything Old World.

As to why buy in UK? It's a old steel boat and built like a battleship, so to speak. The hull has to be totally sound of course or it's a no go. Boats in Florida seem to be fair-weather flimsy affairs to me. Maybe it's just me, old and with my European upbringing. I did see this one that might, might, fit the bill -
1984 Bruce Robert Mauritius 43 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I strongly suspect that boat needs a refit too.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by ccannan

I'm not sure I know the answers to your questions. However, I'm not sure why you'd buy a boat in the UK. I can't imagine you can't find a similar boat (maybe not the same make and model) in the USA. The purchase price, taxes, and any refit will be less that doing it in the UK. So unless you are absolutely hooked on this boat, and really want to patronize the UK boat refit market I'd look around FL.

What makes you say this? Boat prices are currently approximately 25-30% lower in Europe.

[surf_sail]

It looks like it hasn't been answered. But yes as a US citizen you can own a foreign flagged vessel. You can even bring it to the US and not pay import duties if you abide by the rules for foreign flagged vessels (e.g length of stay, etc.)

[ccannan]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

It looks like it hasn't been answered. But yes as a US citizen you can own a foreign flagged vessel. You can even bring it to the US and not pay import duties if you abide by the rules for foreign flagged vessels (e.g length of stay, etc.)

You seem pretty confident about your answer, and you may be right, but I'm less sure that is a universal fact. Meaning, I'm less sure that foreigners, regardless of nationality, can flag their boat in any other nation.

[surf_sail]

Likely not universal, but many US citizens have foreign flagged vessels. It makes sense for superyachts to save taxes but usually not for private yachts. However if the vessel is mostly abroad and only cruising in the US temporarily I would not import it.

[Kenomac]

We're US citizens who purchased our boat in the UK. As a citizen of Canada and the US, I can flag our boat in either country, or incorporate and use a flag of covenience. It's really not that complicated.

Our friends are dual citizens of the UK and Canada with their boat flagged in the British Virgin Islands, and their boat just spent three years in Maryland. You just follow the rules, it's not that difficult. The import tax for a boat coming into the US isn't that expensive anyway, if I'm not mistaken I think it's around 5% or less.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Mariner.

[WouldBeMariner]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Mariner.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

I failed to mention that being UK flagged and UK citizen has advantages over US in some parts of the world one might venture to. For example in French Polynesia one would not be limited to 90 days nor have to lodge a bond. Not to mention a growing "Yankee go home" sentiment that limits the ports at which one would be welcome. Generally I would expect to produce the passport that matches the vessel's flag (with the obvious exception of USA).

Of course it may all change after Brexit, but in ways some good and some bad as it relates to yacht cruising. Being a dual citizen definitely causes problems, but it also has advantages. And heck, just flying the Red Duster is more of a talking point when meeting new friends in a remote place than flying the Stars and Stripes would be.

So I thank everyone who responded (more would be welcome), I clearly have research to do, but at least my plan is not shot down at the first hurdle. And yes, if you carefully arrange matters then taxes and duty on second-hand boats can be quite small or zero. But there is no avoiding taxes on the refit - that has to be done where she lies, you can't take a boat to somewhere cheap, such as the Philippines, to have it made seaworthy

[AiniA]

Normally a cruising permit is good for one year and then you have to have the boat in a different country for 15 days before reentering the US and getting a new CP. One problem is that different parts of the US interpret the rules differently which does make it difficult. One other wrinkle is that when we (Canadians) had residency visas for the US we were able to get an open-ended cruising permit, although the first three-letter office we went to in New Jersey did not even know about this rule.

Final thought, you want to go to Fort Myers but I doubt you will enter the US there. Much more likely that you will enter somewhere on the Atlantic Coast first. When you do you call into authorities and they will either come to you or tell you to come to the local airport to check in. It is pretty painless - generally.

[s/v Moondancer]

I can address the question directly from my own experience. I am a Brit with a US passport and always enter the US on that passport. I have a legal address in the UK and registered my boat on the US Small Ship Registry. I am presently on the boat in New Zealand but was treated like a EU citizen in Tahiti.

For several years I sailed in and out of the US from the Caribbean entering on my US passport and declaring the boat as a UK boat obtaining repeated one year cruising certificates. To renew the certificate you have to leave the US, one year we went to Canada for the summer and renewed the cruising certificate when we re-entered the US in Maine.

There is never a question about a US citizen owning a UK boat either in the US or in any of the 30 countries we have visited.

[s/v Moondancer]

That should have been the UK Small Ship Registry. $50 for 5 years. Not a very impressive certificate and occasionally we have been asked for the bigger version but once we explain they accept.

Do not attempt to enter the US by boat on a UK passport as you need a visa and you will be suddenly an illegal alien!