Do I really need a license that is valid for the countries I visit?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by newhaul

actually polux I do believe you are indirectly interpreting section 5-2.2 states
And I quote

5-2.2. For the purposes provided in the previous section, the required qualification, in those cases in which the nationality of the skipper coincides with that of the flag of the vessel, will be that required in accordance with the legislation of the country of nationality of the skipper; and for the cases in which both nationalities do not coincide, the degree will be that required by the legislation of the shipper's country of residence or, failing that, of their nationality.

Which says you abide by your nations license requirements if you and your vessel are from the same country. If the flag and skippers nationality do not coincide then the skippers nation rules apply.

Not quite. I'm NZ by nationality, but my flag and country of residence are PNG. So NZ rules don't apply to me internationally, PNG rules do.

[boatman61]

To be honest I am more the Zulu type.. but having said that I had to bail out a Irish couple who sailed their cat into Portimao, Portugal and were not permitted to sail out by the harbourmaster till he had a qualified skipper aboard.. I was on an assisted delivery and the Portuguese owner went aboard to sail them out and I picked him off the cat 20nm down the coast with the advisory to the cat owner to keep sailing till he reached Spanish waters 50nm futher down the coast.
I personally have no axe to grind just trying to give a heads up to what can happen.. what you do is your affair.. I'm just answering the OP.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by StuM

Not quite. I'm NZ by nationality, but my flag and country of residence are PNG. So NZ rules don't apply to me internationally, PNG rules do.

so the rules specified In 5-2.2 do apply to you the rule states country of residence.
Where are your identification papers issued. I assume PNG so the rules as stated country of residence apply . ( you even highlighted that sentence )

[Polux]

Originally Posted by newhaul

my state does require a certification for all boaters operating a vessel with more than 10 horsepower ( power or sail) however the united states as a whole does not.

Yes I know, but it seems most of them require some sort of basic licence, many can be taken by internet. It is a bit like different countries in Europe even if you cannot take them from internet and several countries demand not one but several licences for different types of sailing.

More and more countries are demanding a licence and there are studies on the EU to harmonize the law in what regards EU boat licences. Now with the UK out it would be easier. That is needed to end the confusion it is going on here regarding that.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

No. You need a license on coastal waters on any vessel with more than 15 HP regardless of length. Unless you are British then you don’t need squat.. at least for a year etc (see my post).



Not really. But I am not about to get in an endless discussion of the interpretation of Spanish law etc..

In any case I am just telling folks how it is in Germany and Spain at least and AFAIK other EU countries though I have less experience in those so might be wrong (but suspect I am not), In the case of Spain, this article explains the issue very well (in Spanish).

¿Puede España regular qui?n puede ser patr?n de un yate belga? | De costa a costa | Nauta 360


Resumiendo, hay que tener un título, a no ser que en el Estado de bandera no se exija, pero en este caso tiene que coincidir la nacionalidad con la bandera. Es decir, un belga puede navegar una embarcación abanderada en Bélgica sin tener un título, pero no un francés. Este, el francés, tiene que tener un título expedido por Francia o por su Estado de residencia



Believe, don’t believe it .. not my beer. But save the condescending comments and tone cause I might be wrong or I might be right but one thing I am not doing is speaking nonsense out of my ass, but based on what I have experienced and learned on the matter. And that is the point of this forum, to share at least so we can figure things out as a community where things sometimes might not be that clear.

But whatever, really getting tired of these alpha types who have the need to show they know everything (even when they don’t) and put everyone down who says something contrary to their view or beliefs. I am out of here. Cheers.

Call me what you want but I talk based not only on knowledge but on more than 25 000 nm sailed on the last 15 years along the coasts of France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Slovenia, Monte Negro, Croatia, Greece and Turkey and I can tell you that my licence has been asked many times on most of those countries, sometimes photocopied with the boat documents.

That experience that you refer about you sailing without licence in European countries and never been asked for one was when? How many years ago? and in what countries? For how much time?

On the last 5 years authorities have been a lot more demanding regarding boat papers and licences or ICC than on the past.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Polux

Call me what you want but I talk based not only on knowledge but on more than 25 000 nm sailed on the last 15 years along the coasts of France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Slovenia, Monte Negro, Croatia, Greece and Turkey and I can tell you that my licence has been asked many times on most of those countries, sometimes photocopied with the boat documents.

That experience that you refer about you sailing without licence in European countries and never been asked for one was when? How many years ago? and in what countries? For how much time?

On the last 5 years authorities have been a lot more demanding regarding boat papers and licences or ICC than on the past.

I bet they have stepped up the checking of papers in light of all the terrorist attacks . They are just trying to make everyone safer.
However none of this answers my query. Will they accept my state issued certification? For those cruising these countries whom would I direct my queries towards?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I bet they have stepped up the checking of papers in light of all the terrorist attacks . They are just trying to make everyone safer.
However none of this answers my query. Will they accept my state issued certification? For those cruising these countries whom would I direct my queries towards?

Some countries that demand a licence have on their legislation what are other countries licences that are accepted. Other countries say that they will accept similar (in competence) licences to the ones that are used on the country to sail on different waters (6nm of the coast, 150nm or no limit)

On the Spanish law there are a list of accepted foreign licences but no US sailing licences are considered so I guess that they will accept anything you show to them.

In Portugal EU licences are recognized and out of EU licences they can be recognized if they correspond to the same level demanded on the Portuguese licences.

In theory that would mean that your licence would not be accepted even if I don't believe that you would have problem showing an American state licence unless you really piss someone.

On Croatia it is more complicated because in their law they say what are the US accepted licences:Basic Coastal Cruising (ASA); Basic Keelboat (USSA);For sailing till 6nm of the shore.
Bareboat Chartering (ASA); Basic Cruising (USSA);Bareboat Cruising(USSA); for sailing on Croatia territorial waters.
Advanced Coastal Cruising (ASA); Coastal navigation (USSA); Coastal Passagemaking (USSA) for sailing on international adriatic waters.

In France you don't need a licence, in Italy is complicated, you need a licence to sail at more than 6nm of the coast or if you have a diesel engine with more than 2000cm3, if the engine has more than 30kw or 40.8hp.

Regarding foreigners it is identical to the Portuguese legislation, (no specified foreign accepted licences) so I believe that you will not have a problem with an American state licence if that licence specifies the limits where it is valid.
Patente nautica estera

I don't remember if Slovenia demanded one, I remember Montenegro demanded a Licence, Greece and Turkey too but I cannot read their languages. I know they will accept the ICC but don't know if they will accept a state licence.

There are lots of Americans sailing extensively on the med, some on this forum and you can ask them. Maybe you have problems with a state licence maybe not. To be sure you don't have, if I was on your place I would take take a Asa coastal certificate.

[chuckr]

we have sailed most of the Med and only asked in Croatia and Montenegro - in Black Sea I think the Russians asked for it but can't remember -


Did not need it in Greece or Turkey


We have ASA booklet and that was acceptable -

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Polux

That is simply not true. I know the legislation of several southern countries and the fact your country does not demand a licence don't except you to have a recognised one or a RYA relevant course (if it is accepted) or an ICC on the countries that signed that agreement.

You need also to be holder of a maritime radio operator certificate.

UK is a country where licences for sailing are not needed and their sailors face the same problem regarding sailing countries where licences are needed. The RYA has stated about that need:

"UK Government does not require the skipper to have a certificate of competence or licence.

• This is not necessarily the case for the territorial or internal waters of another country

• . The requirements vary from country to country so you should establish what is required in advance

. .. The International Certificate of Competence (ICC) is increasingly the certificate that is requested whilst cruising abroad."

"The International Radio Regulations require that a maritime radio station is controlled by an operator holding a certificate issued or recognised by the government to which the station is subject. For a UK recreational boater operating a DSC VHF radio this is usually the RYA issued Short Range Certificate (SRC). "
Paperwork | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA

in some countries essential to carry an ICC.
Acceptance of the ICC by the visited country should be because the visited country itself has accepted the Resolution 40. However, as the UK is one of only a few countries which have fully accepted Resolution 40 this is quite often not the case. [/COLOR]
Acceptance of the ICC | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA

In addition the ICC, you should also be aware of the local requirements for skippers, boats and licences wherever you go and, if possible, take with you translations of the certificates that you hold.
Cruising Abroad | Courses | Learning | Courses & Training | RYA

Misleading information about this can cause problems to cruisers if they trust that information.

Actually, if you read thru all your quotes, it never actually says an ICC is required only that it is increasingly "requested" and you should check local regulations. There is a big difference between "requested" and "legally required".

Also, your source is the RYA who happens to be in the business of issuing ICC certificates, so while they seem to be a good organization, I take these statements with a grain of salt since there is a conflict of interest.

For coastal cruising, it may be more convenient to just hand over the ICC but push comes to shove, the rule is you have to meet your own countries licensing rules (whether that be for the person or the boat flag could be debated). A country not requiring a license is a valid licensing rule but it can give local authorities fits when they don't know what to put in the check box, so you occasionally see them hassle people (there is the legal vs practical application of the rules to consider).

Of course, countries can make any rule they like but it's not typical.

PS: Radio licenses are a different ball game as there aren't many countries that don't require them, so it sorts itself out.

PPS: Inland waterways are typically held to the local countries standard.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Also, your source is the RYA who happens to be in the business of issuing ICC certificates, so while they seem to be a good organization, I take these statements with a grain of salt since there is a conflict of interest.

Almost certainly unfounded, the RYA has a respected legal team both providing information and fighting the legal corner for sailors. As good a place as any to look for guidance.
Also worth looking to is Yachting and Boating World Forums , often the latest on what is actually happening in specific ports will be posted in the liveaboard forum if it's newsworthy.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by conachair

Almost certainly unfounded, the RYA has a respected legal team both providing information and fighting the legal corner for sailors. As good a place as any to look for guidance.

I'm not suggesting RYA is a bad organization or that they don't have a good legal team. It's also not a bad idea to get an ICC for convenience if your home country doesn't provide an equivalent.

But they danced if it is a legal requirement, implying you need an ICC without actually stating an ICC is a legal requirement.

Some of this is likely that there are exceptions and caviots to every rule and the lawyers don't want the RYA on the hook if they don't cover everything but since they actively promote ICC schooling put on by their organization, they have a clear conflict of interest.

Again, this is nothing against the RYA in particular but I've been involved in enough policy decisions at large organizations that I don't believe any large organization is immune to twisting wording within the bounds of what is legal and not actually false to imply a result that aligns with their goals.

Now if someone can quote a law or document-able government source that would be clarify.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by newhaul

.. Will they accept my state issued certification? For those cruising these countries whom would I direct my queries towards?

I forgot to say that most countries demand a radio VHF operator licence.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Polux

I forgot to say that most countries demand a radio VHF operator licence.

I am a licensed ham operator so licensing is covered with respect to radios.

[boatman61]

Sometimes I wonder if this should be called Cruising The Big Bang Theory Forum...

[fxykty]

OK, so as a New Zealand resident and on a boat registered in the UK I should probably have a certificate of competence such as ICC or Yachtmaster Day Skipper, Offshore (which I have) or Ocean if I sail my boat to Europe. For the rest of the world I haven’t seen any replies so I guess it’s only Europe?

A radio operators licence is a requirement of most national authorities, though no clearance officer in the South Pacific has ever asked to see it nor any other certificate of competence.

A ship’s radio licence is legally required just as is a national boat registration, but those are both separate from the operator. I’ve never been asked to produce the ship’s radio licence either.

For NZ registered boats only there is a requirement to be cleared to go offshore, the Category 1 certificate, which applies to both boat and crew. At least one person on board must have passage experience or equivalent certification. They tried to apply this to all visiting yachts but removed it under huge protests by the cruising community, which rightly said that if you could sail to NZ then you’ve proved your own and your boat’s capability.