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Old 25-02-2023, 20:29   #46
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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Originally Posted by requiem View Post
Hmm... I think this is an example of why lawyers often want their clients to stop talking....
It is true that lawyers enjoy the mental exercise of this kind of discussion, but if you have to try a case you learn to focus on the key elements. In this case, the question whether the tug was RAM is actually irrelevant -- and thus too is whether it was displaying appropriate shapes.

Simple fact is two boats approach with room to pass port to port. If they were along a channel the sailboat might know how the tug is going to have to maneuver, but in this case with a dredging tug and barge the sailboat would not anticipate a sudden turn across its bow. Even if the tug was RAM and was the stand-on vessel, it should have clarified its intention, easily done with two honks "leaving you to starboard." Stand-on usually means maintaining course and speed, and does not confer the right to turn into a collision course.

In case of an actual collision, it thus seems the fault would lie with the tug. As it happened it seems quite possible that the tug felt there was enough room for the sailboat to cross to pass starboard to starboard after seeing the turn, thus obviating the need for a whistle. The tug judged it a little close, but in fact the sailboat did manage to evade. Since we sail around a lot of tugs in sometimes busy waters, I have some sympathy for the captain above who pointed out they don't have a lot of time to hail every boat on VHS. Still, a couple of honks would have been easy. (The tug crew were probably commenting that the sailboat cut things a little close despite seeing an obvious barge dead ahead!)
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Old 26-02-2023, 17:18   #47
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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It is true that lawyers enjoy the mental exercise of this kind of discussion, but if you have to try a case you learn to focus on the key elements. In this case, the question whether the tug was RAM is actually irrelevant -- and thus too is whether it was displaying appropriate shapes.
Key elements become more compelling when you can build a dramatic narrative around them. Comments like Cpt Mark's (beyond those strictly relating to maneuvering characteristics) would be useful in framing the events with a sense of entitlement ("We were working, on the expensive clock") and a disregard for the rules ("you will see permanently mounted day shapes").

Two elements I'd mainly be concerned about are the respective paths of the tug and the sailboat. It's implied the sailboat was traveling along the north side of the channel (i.e. intention to follow the other traffic along the north side, and the dredging-related vessels moving to the south side). The claim by the sailboat is the tug, after moving outbound in the channel, cut across the channel resulting in the sailboat having an unintended gybe. (No mention of any signals made by either side.)

This is also in relatively tight quarters: the channel is ~700 feet wide. For US West Coasters it's similar to the width of the channel leading up the Oakland Estuary to Jack London Square. In contrast, there are almost 1000 feet between the south tower of the Golden Gate Bridge and Fort Point. Both vessels should have been well aware of each other, and thus the risk of making a sudden (and unannounced) course change.

Assuming those elements are correct, up until the tug's course change there was no risk of collision, nor even any "impeding". Had the tug kept to her side of the channel, there would have been no issue. There are very few scenarios in which the sailboat could safely expect a "two whistle" pass to be reasonable. Outside of the Western Rivers, etc such a passing agreement does not relieve the vessels of their Rule 9 obligations. The sailboat would be rightly hesitant to attempt evading to port; there is no way to know when the tug might "straighten out". This created a very dangerous situation in a very short time, and thus to me the initial Rule 9 violation by the tug is likely to land her much of the fault.*

As for the sailboat, the dredging activity was published in the LNM and the sailboat would be expected to be aware of this. Similar to the "if you're thinking about reefing" adage, it would have been prudent for the sailboat to have made a VHF call at the start. She should also have sounded the danger signal after the tug changed course, as well as attempting another VHF call. The lack of communication on all sides is also unfortunate.

* There are a number of cases establishing that being in the wrong water is a serious fault, each with their own characteristics. I list two of the simpler ones here.
  • The Empire Brent: 100% fault to the vessel navigating on the wrong side of the channel, ruling that Rule 9 governs such navigation and not the Rules 14 or 15. (Likely to not be 100% in the present day)
  • The Anna Bibolini: 75% fault to the vessel on the wrong side, 25% due to the other not maintaining a safe speed for conditions. "… Anna Bibolini failed to keep on her starboard side of the channel... In my judgment there was a failure to keep Anna Bibolini under proper control, either by the use of her engines or with the help of tugs. It is a serious fault to allow a ship to be on the wrong side of a narrow channel, particularly in weather conditions which restrict visibility and all the more serious when it is known that another ship is approaching and is less than one mile distant."
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Old 27-02-2023, 07:50   #48
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

I will go with should have dropeed the sail and used power. What you are trying to do is apply logic to an illogical situation. You see they are probably used to dealing with people that make no attempt to do the proper thing so they do what they need to do to get things done. CAn you imagine what it must be like to try and figure out some guy with all his bumpers out and kids hanging off the side of the boat is going to do next.
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Old 27-02-2023, 08:11   #49
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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My unsolicited .02

1) You were motor sailing into an inlet with relatively limited maneuverability (it's not the open ocean).

2) You continued with the sail up despite there being an active dredging operation.

3) You acknowledge VHF communication, but chose to wait.

4) You had to go full reverse to avoid a collision.

I guess on the one hand, either you collided or you didn't collide....close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

IMHO, I would have dropped the sail, radio'd much earlier and not gotten so close that I had to full reverse. On all accounts you had opportunities to take action, but didn't. I don't see the dredging operation as being the unpredictable entity in this encounter.

But hey, you asked.

What he said!

Communicate when in the slightest doubt. Why go into a tight area under sail if you really don’t have to.
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Old 27-02-2023, 08:58   #50
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

Here here!. Yes, when in doubt, call the pilot or one of the tug captains involved and ask what is best.
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Old 27-02-2023, 08:59   #51
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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This is a good point for me to consider. It may have been easier to head up than I was thinking. In the urgency of the moment, my first thought was "slow forward motion as quickly as possible", which led to the full-throttle in reverse. This made my prop walk take my bow to starboard. I also didn't know immediately whether they would continue to cross the channel in front of me or were going to veer back towards their original course, so a hard turn to port might have been in their path again.

One reason for me leaving my main up is that we've had engine issues once or twice coming into an inlet, and having a sail up has saved our bacon by being able to turn and sail back out the inlet while figuring out the issue.

All good thoughts. Thank you.
If you have had engine issues coming into an inlet before, it is time to see what is wrong with your engine or fuel system before entering the next inlet!
I have never thought that sailing into an inlet was a good idea. A solid, dependable engine is your best insurance.

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Old 27-02-2023, 09:00   #52
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

Mea culpa: after a very alcoholic lunch at anchor in Hong Kong, my skipper and I decided to hoist the spinnaker on our Impala 28 for the return home. Somehow the strings took quite a bit of sorting out…..By the time we had the spinnaker set we were rapidly aware of a big tug towing a barge full of sh%t bearing down on us . Lots of things then happened. The tug went full astern. The barge carried on. We caught the 2 inch thick tow rope round our bows. We were slung round and out into the stern of the tug where the rubber tyre fenders bounced us out and we ran all the way down the side of the barge, to the detriment of our hull paint. Then we were out in the open, the spinnaker filled and we resumed our course. Later a large offering of apologies was made to the tug captain.
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Old 27-02-2023, 09:37   #53
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

I am an active sailor (52' wooden ketch) and a seagoing tugboat captain.
First tugs ALWAYS monitor VHF Channel 13 and will respond there faster than on 16. The tug may or may not be Restricted in Ability to Maneuver but almost always is unable to navigate outside the channel.
Wind and current affect barges in sometimes unpredictable ways and the tug correcting the movement might have to undertake some surprising maneuvers.
Generally contact the dredge first on 13 and they will advise you and then after that contact any tugs in the area.
We always joke about the Law of Gross Tonnage but you need to do everything in your capability to avoid an incident no matter who has the right of way
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Old 27-02-2023, 09:41   #54
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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Not unsolicited -- that's why I made this post.

To everyone saying that dropping all sails and proceeding under motor only would be more prudent -- that is a fair point. As mentioned above, I've had a couple of instances where having a sail up has saved us due to an engine problem, and I felt it was prudent to have a sail as a bailout plan in case of emergency. I will ponder this for the future, though, and appreciate the feedback.
Again, The solution is to have a dependable engine.
Find out what is causing your engine to die in an inlet.

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Old 27-02-2023, 09:53   #55
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

Interesting discussion all around, and thanks for the thoughtful responses globally. As for "Why go into a tight area under sail if you really don’t have to." or "it is time to see what is wrong with your engine or fuel system before entering the next inlet!" - the problem is 40 mile long barrier islands on Florida coasts. For a sailboat, "the next inlet" is a day's sail away. If I did not have an engine and it was a beam reach (southerly winds that day), I would not hesitate to sail into an inlet. I've done it dozens of times with the engine running and in idle in case of trouble. In a monohull, I'm largely as maneuverable under sail. In my current catamaran I am not at slower speeds. Sorry, I have an "auxiliary sailboat", not a "motorboat with attractive hangings".
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Old 27-02-2023, 09:53   #56
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

Is it possible that the tug had submerged items in the water and his turn was to avoid the possibility of you passing over or getting tangled in whatever was in the water?

With dredging operations, they are dragging around pipes, anchors and pumping equipment.

On the open waters, a non-obvious danger is presented when a tug is towing a barge. Sometimes the barge is a long, long, long way back. If you think this is two vessels headed the same way and think you have time to pass between them, the tow cable may be your end.

If you have any doubts or aren't up to speed on your day signals, VHF and a lot of caution is your friend.
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Old 27-02-2023, 09:57   #57
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

Just to make you feel better....motoring a 44' IP.



We are new at this...and on our first journey. Encountered two dredges in the ICW side of the Oregon Inlets.

Hailed on 16...repeatedly no response (lesson taught and learned, dredges too busy, some only monitor 13).

Made it around #1 underway.

Came to immense #2, not underway, with 1/4 mile of floating large diamter tubage attached.

As random luck would have it, I noted the day shapes and knew to pass on my STBD side (diamonds). We grounded several times before backing up and issued the universal body language signals of WTF....worker told us to hug the 'work'. Grounded twice more....0.1M away. Back.

Worker says hail on 13. Cpt say follow this (work) boat...than say's stop, wait.

.

We waited while work boat pushes the tubage 200ft to the North. Than cpt says go ahead. I apologize for not knowing to hail on 13. He says, "well, you did better than most"


Fortunately, we were never concerned about life or limb. Just concerned about our own ignorance. Can't wait to examine the bottom, hopefully, it was soft mud that just buffed the paint.



Ugh.



I really appreciate the lessons you folks share. Thank you!


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Old 27-02-2023, 10:14   #58
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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Thinking back to it, the last dredging crew that I saw working in our local harbor was great. The dredge was working only to 1 side or the other at a time, so it was very clear which side to pass on. They were moving the dredge down river just a few feet at a time, so no big deal there. Whenever they were about to swap out a barge or coming back in after dumping the tug crew would put out a securite call on 16 so anyone smart enough to be listening would know their intentions and could stay out of the way easily without each boat having to talk to the dredge crew.
I have found dredge operators to be very polite and cooperative if you call them on the radio to find out what is going on with them.
Once going into Oregon Inlet in North Carolina I called the dredge operator and he actually Repositioned the dredge for me to give me more room since Oregon Inlet is a fairly dangerous. I thanked him very much, because the extra room gave me more room to maneuver.

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Old 27-02-2023, 10:38   #59
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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Originally Posted by John_Trusty View Post
Interesting discussion all around, and thanks for the thoughtful responses globally. As for "Why go into a tight area under sail if you really don’t have to." or "it is time to see what is wrong with your engine or fuel system before entering the next inlet!" - the problem is 40 mile long barrier islands on Florida coasts. For a sailboat, "the next inlet" is a day's sail away. If I did not have an engine and it was a beam reach (southerly winds that day), I would not hesitate to sail into an inlet. I've done it dozens of times with the engine running and in idle in case of trouble. In a monohull, I'm largely as maneuverable under sail. In my current catamaran I am not at slower speeds. Sorry, I have an "auxiliary sailboat", not a "motorboat with attractive hangings".
40 miles worth of sailing sounds like a long time to see what’s wrong with your engine. I once changed all of my fuel filters and re-primed and restarted my engine while sailing between Charleston, SC and Cape Fear.
And sailing into a wide open inlet is different than sailing into a narrow one with a dredge working.

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Old 27-02-2023, 11:21   #60
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?

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Is this normal behavior on the part of dredge/tug captains?
LTaylor, I'm not sure I could've read so many good suggestions in one place on the forum regarding the issue. Thanks for asking the question!


Re the dredge/tug captains' behavior. My (limited) experience so far is the areas where the boating traffic is 'mostly' recreational, the dredge/tug captain seem to be more considerate, and vice-versa.



Maybe indirectly related - I learned a bit a while back when sailing the Cape Fear in our previous boat, a 24 footer. With the sails up in a stiff breeze a super large container ship approached in a narrower part of the river. We maneuvered well to the (leeward) side as far as we wanted to go - 9 ft depth (just inside of the pesky crab pots) - with a 4.5 ft draft. The sails went slack until the ship passed. Unfortunately, a recreational motor vessel was counting on us to continue making way slowly until he could safely pass, and had to avoid coming up on us too close. It took a couple of moments to drop the outboard. This created only an inconvenience to the other skipper, but I'd rather not be a bother to others. I should've expected the dead air when the big ship was farther away and prepared to start motoring as soon as it was upon us.
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