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22-02-2023, 15:59
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyb2
But I think you might be making some bad assumptions about how your boat handles. With the main only up, wind roughly on the beam, it should either be neutral or (more likely) have some weather helm. Add to that that you were motoring and have prop wash over the rudder, and turning into 20 knts of wind should be no issue at all. It would almost certainly happen quicker than coming to a stop using reverse. It’s not a marina situation where you need to place the boat gently - crank the helm over, push the throttle to the stop, and you should come through 90 in a couple of seconds.
As an aside, this is basically the reason I always preferred to drop all sail and motor in to any inlet. It just reduces the number of things you have to think about on the fly if something goes sideways. In this case, without the main, you may have chosen to turn away from the wind and come through 270 deg, but the idea of a jibe dropped that down a few pegs on the mental options list.
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This is a good point for me to consider. It may have been easier to head up than I was thinking. In the urgency of the moment, my first thought was "slow forward motion as quickly as possible", which led to the full-throttle in reverse. This made my prop walk take my bow to starboard. I also didn't know immediately whether they would continue to cross the channel in front of me or were going to veer back towards their original course, so a hard turn to port might have been in their path again.
One reason for me leaving my main up is that we've had engine issues once or twice coming into an inlet, and having a sail up has saved our bacon by being able to turn and sail back out the inlet while figuring out the issue.
All good thoughts. Thank you.
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22-02-2023, 16:01
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz
I'm grateful for any dredging that's done in the ICW or inlets: far too many have silted and shoaled and become unusable. The deeper and better maintained, the better.
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I agree! I guess I just need to initiate communication with them earlier if in doubt.
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22-02-2023, 16:12
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrew
My unsolicited .02
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Not unsolicited -- that's why I made this post.
To everyone saying that dropping all sails and proceeding under motor only would be more prudent -- that is a fair point. As mentioned above, I've had a couple of instances where having a sail up has saved us due to an engine problem, and I felt it was prudent to have a sail as a bailout plan in case of emergency. I will ponder this for the future, though, and appreciate the feedback.
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22-02-2023, 16:23
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,915
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTaylor
Not unsolicited -- that's why I made this post.
To everyone saying that dropping all sails and proceeding under motor only would be more prudent -- that is a fair point. As mentioned above, I've had a couple of instances where having a sail up has saved us due to an engine problem, and I felt it was prudent to have a sail as a bailout plan in case of emergency. I will ponder this for the future, though, and appreciate the feedback.
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For that situation I'd want to make sure that you could get some sail up quickly. But if motoring into tight quarters, having the sails already up can be a liability in terms of maneuverability and that's more likely than an engine failure at a critical moment.
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22-02-2023, 16:26
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Trusty
I wasn't there, but it sounds like our new member LTaylor did a pretty good job in a strained situation - No gelcoat scratched. Having transited some of these inlets, I'd like to offer some defense of the criticism.
1. Sails up is bad if you need to maneuver - I always transit all inlets with at least the Main up. I've lost engine power in a close situation and ran aground, thankfully on mud that time. Inlets around here have rip-rap breakwaters and losing power may mean losing the boat. I sail much better than I motor.
2. Private boater should have used the VHF to get permission to transit a navigable waterway - Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the federal regs or colregs saying that a vessel restricted in ability to maneuver (RAM) gets to close a waterway without USCG port captain instruction, duly posted and communicated - enlighten me. He was maneuvering and there was not sound signals nor understanding on VHF. The other vessel did not maintain course and speed. Was the other vessel even marked RAM, or do you just guess based on their current job (that doesn't sound right)? Both parties were lucky that the LTaylor had a keel monohull, not a catamaran, a sportfisherman on plane, or another commercial vessel - they do not turn on a dime.
3. Close is not a real collision so shake it off - As any pilot, safety officer, ships captain, etc. will tell you, there is a pyramid of bad decisions, some of which leads to close misses, some of which leads to accidents, some of which lead to injury or death. Close misses are the second step on a short pyramid. If you do not learn from close misses, you will definitely keep climbing.
I don't know the root-causes of this near miss, but it could have been worse. I'm guessing that part of the root cause may be staffing on the tug operations. These are not government boats, but contracted by the USCG or Corp of Engineers to conduct dredging. Every qualified deckhand or officer is money out of the owner's pocket. That tug captain may not have had the mental bandwidth or time to deal with wind, little recreational boats, tide, weight of his tow, etc. to bother with the radio or sound signals. May not be his fault, just profits and circumstances. On second thought, I may have reported this thing to the local USCG - for all I know that captain may have been impaired in some way and could kill someone on a small boat.
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Thanks for all of your feedback, John_Trusty. I tend to agree with your thoughts about having a sail up. Also totally agree with your take on the other potential factors at play with staffing.
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22-02-2023, 17:31
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Can't really add anything to the advice already given, but for general edification it's helpful to know the lights/shapes for dredging operations:
Quote:
27(d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to maneuver, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in Rules 27(b)(i), (ii) and (iii) and shall in addition when an obstruction exists, exhibit: Dredging and Underwater Operations
(i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists;
(ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which another vessel may pass; and
(iii) when at anchor, the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shapes prescribed in Rule 30. Vessel Restricted in Her Ability to Maneuver
Inland
(iv) Dredge pipelines that are floating or supported on trestles shall display the following lights at night and in periods of restricted visibility.
(1) One row of yellow lights. The lights must be:
(A) Flashing 50 to 70 times per minute,
(B) Visible all round the horizon,
(C) Visible for at least 2 miles,
(D) Not less than 1 and not more than 3.5 meters above the water,
(E) Approximately equally spaced, and
(F) Not more than 10 meters apart where the pipeline crosses a navigable channel. Where the pipeline does not cross a navigable channel the lights must be sufficient in number to clearly show the pipeline’s length and course.
(2) Two red lights at each end of the pipeline, including the ends in a channel where the pipeline is separated to allow vessels to pass (whether open or closed). The lights must be:
(A) Visible all round the horizon, and
(B) Visible for at least 2 miles, and
(C) One meter apart in a vertical line with the lower light at the same height above the water as the flashing yellow light.
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22-02-2023, 19:13
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Boat: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 3,369
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
I wasn't there, and I won't assume to know all the details. But for illustrative purposes, put yourself in the mindset of a work boat (tug, dredge, etc.) in that situation.
They're doing authorized work. It's probably posted in the LNM, possibly broadcast regularly by the CG. But even if not, it's patently obvious to all that they have a job to do, and it would be smart to stay out of their way. Better still would be to communicate with whoever on the project is answering the radio. Others did so, and made passing arrangements as normal.
Then along comes this one boat, possibly under sail, not calling on the radio and obviously not sure of where they should be to stay safe.
What's going through the tug or dredge operators mind? Probably something like "WAFI." They're always sailing around aimlessly, not looking where they're going, never answering the radio, and often trying to prove they have "right of way" over everyone else.
Now, I'm not saying that's an accurate description. But that's the impression a lot of commercial operators have, based on long experience on the water. Similar negative opinions exist of fast power cruisers, recreational fishermen and even commercial fishermen. These stereotypes are not entirely undeserved.
The bottom line is, if you call them and sound professional, they will respond in kind. But they can't spend all their time wondering what every idiot out there is going to do. Sometimes they just have to get on with the job.
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22-02-2023, 19:37
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 1,178
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Hmm... regarding sails, I'm usually less concerned about the engine and more about the sails impairing my close-quarters maneuvering. Heavier boats can also glide a decent amount, often enough to haul out a sail should it be necessary. That's also reason to not fully put away the sails until you're safely berthed.
For the reverse bit: if you know you'll have that prop walk issue, try throwing the helm over before going hard reverse. Ideally it will simply cancel out the turning momentum rather than spinning you the wrong direction. This is something you can practice a bit in calm water, and useful should you find yourself in a marina fairway and don't have the time/space for a pivot turn.
As for the tug, based on the description I wouldn't necessarily expect them to display RAM signals but I would be keeping a paranoid eye on them. I'd probably also be hugging the North side of the inlet as much as practical. On the other hand, it is rather poor form for the tug to create an uncertain situation, especially if it involves forcing the stand-on vessel into a left turn. How far to the north side did they end up traversing? Did it seem like they were trying to simply get space between them and the jetty, or was it just a straight-line path to reach some point on the North side??
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22-02-2023, 19:39
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,915
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Thinking back to it, the last dredging crew that I saw working in our local harbor was great. The dredge was working only to 1 side or the other at a time, so it was very clear which side to pass on. They were moving the dredge down river just a few feet at a time, so no big deal there. Whenever they were about to swap out a barge or coming back in after dumping the tug crew would put out a securite call on 16 so anyone smart enough to be listening would know their intentions and could stay out of the way easily without each boat having to talk to the dredge crew.
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22-02-2023, 21:56
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#25
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 15,247
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin
For that situation I'd want to make sure that you could get some sail up quickly. But if motoring into tight quarters, having the sails already up can be a liability in terms of maneuverability and that's more likely than an engine failure at a critical moment.
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Yes. Sails up is a far greater liability here, ESPECIALLY if it is blowing 15 to 20 IMO.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
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23-02-2023, 12:49
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#26
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Attached to a mooring ball in Jensen Beach FL, until...
Boat: Leopard 40 2009
Posts: 649
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Here's the local Notice to Mariners from last week:
Great Lakes Dredge & Dock Company, LLC will be conducting dredging operations in the Lake Worth Inlet Entrance Channel and the settling basins
just to the north of the north jetty. The Cutter Suction Dredge ALASKA is scheduled to mobilize and commence dredging operation around February
1, 2023 with an estimated completion date of March 15, 2023. Survey operations will be conducted by the vessel MARY LOUISE will occur during
daylight hours, 7 days per week. Dredging operations by the Cutter Suction Dredge ALASKA and support equipment will occur 24 hours a day, 7
days a week. Vessels will be monitoring VHF-FM Channel 5, 13 and 16.
During construction, a submerged pipeline will be placed on the sea floor across the entrance channel and a pipeline will be placed over top of the
south jetty onto the beach. In addition, there will be 2,000 pounds of floating pipeline behind the Dredge ALASKA going to a fixed floating barge
near the end of the north jetty.
Vessels should avoid the active dredging area during construction and proceed at slow speed in the area surrounding the dredge, pipeline and
support equipment. Proceed with utmost caution in the dredging area.
The waterside staging area will be located just south of the Port of Palm Beach near the western shore and may be utilized throughout the project
for periodically staging all vessels and waterside equipment, pipeline and pontoons. For further information, contact Dredge ALASKA (443) 838-
1711.
__________________
John Trusty
Better to trust the man who is frequently in error than the one who is never in doubt." -- Eric Sevareid
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23-02-2023, 14:08
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,754
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Probably should have used a horn signal indicating you were overtaking and passing on that side. That way they could have responded likewise. or reject the plan.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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23-02-2023, 16:07
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: LI, NY,USA
Boat: 2010 Jeanneau SO 44i
Posts: 835
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Some will sail right to their slips if they can, I have a mooring I can sail up on to, but I rarely do. A great many people do not understand how sailboats function under the power of wind, they do not know the points of sail or for that matter wind direction. Sailing in constricted waterways is risky business especially with barges and tugs imho
Most sailors have no idea how a barge handles under tow so there’s a lot of guessing going on.
1. I would say strike the sails so that you have the full radius of the compass to maneuver.
2. On Channel 16 I would try to hail the tug before entering the inlet.
IF there is no response at least you followed protocol. Usually boat US or the coasties are listening. TRY several times.
3. Inch in with just enough power to maintain control, if you have a horn sound it with 5 short blasts repeat in sequence until you can make visual contact singnal that you want to talk, by pretending a phone is in your hand.
4. With short efficient col-Regis comms hail the tug from the data you have on AIS.
I have had to do these steps several times, my vessel is restricted by draft at 7.5 ft a lot of boaters get angry at me because I do not budge when they try to push.
Please forgive the authoritarianism if it sounds that way, I sometimes lack the ability to soften words in the written language.
Cheers
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23-02-2023, 16:50
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 7,878
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTaylor
Yesterday I had a harrowing experience with a dredging operation in the Lake Worth inlet. I would like to learn from this experience if I could have done anything differently/better.
My wife and I had a beautiful sail from Fort Pierce down to Lake Worth on our 42' Brewer 12.8.
. . .
As we approached the inlet, I could see on AIS that a dredging vessel (Alaska) and multiple tugs were positioned right in the center of the channel just inside the inlet. I heard a few other vessels radioing the the dredge (or the inlet/harbormaster -- I'm not sure) asking permission to transit the inlet.
. . .
As we got closer, the dredging and tug vessels moved to the south side of the channel, and I could see fishing boats and other pleasurecraft moving in and out of the inlet on the north side, so I planned to follow the flow of traffic. As we got still closer, I could see a tug (Champion) side-tied to a dredging-related vessel, slowly moving west to east to exit the inlet. It seemed we would pass port-to-port.
Right as we cleared the jetties and were in the narrow part of the inlet, the tug with its tow suddenly made a hard turn to port, cutting directly in front of us. I had to throw our engine in reverse, full-throttle, to avoid a collision. Men standing on the vessel started pointing to the south (to our port), indicating that we should turn to port to navigate around them. We had 15-20 knots of wind from the south, so I could not easily head up into the wind, turning on a dime. Our displacement is 15 tons and it was not easy to slow down or turn to avoid a collision.
We were able to slow down enough to allow the tug and its towed vessel to clear us as they crossed the channel in front of us, but due to our prop walk our stern walked to port and our bow fell to starboard. We had left our mainsail up, and as our stern passed through the wind we jibed. Fortunately I saw that we were about to jibe with a few seconds of warning and we were able to trim in the main a good bit before it happened. IMHO, sailing in a narrow inlet with major traffic [side tied barge] and a dredging vessel impediments and strong winds blowing to the north shore is asking for trouble. Were you motor sailing, seems like you had been given that you were able to reverse and slow quickly? Did you display that you were motor sailing with day signals and AIS?
We turned and motored back out the inlet, waiting to see what the tug would do. We didn't want to try to enter again if they were going to be crossing in front of us again. I attempted to hail them on the VHF, and eventually another vessel in the dredging operation (or the inlet/harbormaster -- I couldn't understand who it was) responded. I asked about coordinating entry and they simply said that the inlet was open and to stay on the north side of the channel.
I feel that the tug captain was maneuvering unsafely. I understand that I need to stay out of the way of working vessels, and I'm sure they mostly have to just do their jobs and not be worrying about every small vessel entering and exiting the inlet, assuming that we'll navigate around them. However, I feel this was a careless maneuver due to how close we came to a collision.
Should I have done something differently, such as hailing them on the VHF before entering the inlet and asking about their intentions?
Is this normal behavior on the part of dredge/tug captains?
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COLREGS
Rule 9
Narrow Channels
(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow passage or fairway.
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
(e)
*
(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only when the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d).
*
(ii) This rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.
(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(e).
(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel.
Lake Worth Inlet and jetties imaged looking west below.
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24-02-2023, 08:16
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: LI, NY,USA
Boat: 2010 Jeanneau SO 44i
Posts: 835
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Re: Dangerous dredging maneuvers in inlet -- what should I have done differently?
Seeing the inlet posted by Montanan I can’t help wonder how big the barge was to impede your direction of travel?
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