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Old 22-01-2021, 11:02   #1
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Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

ELBE
MMSI 245227000

Dredging operations St John, Antigua

Class A
79 meters

Distinguishing Features; day-glow orange accents.

This is a sand sucker dredge in the St John area. It makes several excursions off shore to dump dredged materials from his hold. He claims restricted at all times even when motoring to or from dumping when he is at sea and clearly motoring. You will probably not see necessary day shapes either.

He refused to give way as we were approaching Deep Bay under sail. I hailed to assert that he was the give way vessel. He claimed “restricted”. We were in open water with sufficient depth, space and no restrictions during daylight hours. My Watchmate showed a zero CPA. We had to take severe evasive maneuvers to pass astern. I believe he has a programmed autopilot and will not take it out of automatic for anything.

Consider this vessel Rogue and dangerous. Several witnesses in the anchorage said he was crazy and clearly wrong.
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Old 22-01-2021, 19:55   #2
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
ELBE
MMSI 245227000

Dredging operations St John, Antigua

Class A
79 meters

Distinguishing Features; day-glow orange accents.

This is a sand sucker dredge in the St John area. It makes several excursions off shore to dump dredged materials from his hold. He claims restricted at all times even when motoring to or from dumping when he is at sea and clearly motoring. You will probably not see necessary day shapes either.

He refused to give way as we were approaching Deep Bay under sail. I hailed to assert that he was the give way vessel. He claimed “restricted”. We were in open water with sufficient depth, space and no restrictions during daylight hours. My Watchmate showed a zero CPA. We had to take severe evasive maneuvers to pass astern. I believe he has a programmed autopilot and will not take it out of automatic for anything.

Consider this vessel Rogue and dangerous. Several witnesses in the anchorage said he was crazy and clearly wrong.
Oh lordy.... Another "rouge and dangerous" sailboat "captain" with a bug up his butt.

If you had to take "severe evasive actions" you were way too close and clearly being stupid. You might (or might not) have been right, but still stupid.

We sailed in and out of St Johns in Antigua last week--multiple times. The dredge was always easy to avoid. No, I did NOT insist that he avoid me. I called him on the radio once to coordinate passing arrangements, and he was clear and polite. There was no issue.

There are only two possibilities here. You are in the narrow part of the channel, and the dredge clearly has the right of way (Rule 9) or you are out past the narrow bit, and you have lots of room to avoid him.

It's "captains" like this who give all the rest of us sailing sailors a bad reputation.
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Old 22-01-2021, 20:32   #3
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

I always give way to what I think is the burden vessel. Surely a dredge 250ft., long is not the most maneuverable vessel on the water. It';s easy when a mile away to alter a few degrees. I did the same once for a very large cabin-cruiser outside of Santa Barbara. But this guy kept countering to every change of course I made to give him way. He was another one on the VHF spouting off rules of the road.
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Old 22-01-2021, 20:39   #4
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

When I search that MMSI number I do not get a dredge.
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Old 22-01-2021, 21:32   #5
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

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When I search that MMSI number I do not get a dredge.
Yep

Name SOMERS ISLES
Flag Netherlands
MMSI 245227000
IMO 9375147
Call Sign PHOX
Type General Cargo
Size 100 x 16 m
Speed AVG/MAX ---
Draught AVG ---
GRT 3,871 Tons
DWT 4,800 Tons
Owner ---
Build 2012 ( 9 years old )
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Old 22-01-2021, 22:21   #6
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

I’m guessing a typo:

Name: ELBE
IMO Number: IMO 9452842
Flag: Netherlands
Call sign: PBMK
MMSI: 245272000
Characteristics

Type: Trailing Suction Hopper Dredger
Date of build: 2010-10
Gross tonnage: 2,472
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Old 23-01-2021, 03:45   #7
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

Bilk year, this was no where near a Channel or otherwise restricted area. All surrounding waters over 50 feet. Additionally, there was no problem with the CPA. as ELBE exited St John for open water he turned to port on his programmed rout and into our path. He could hav delayed hie turn by 15 seconds and fallen behind us. This turned a safe crossing into a confrontation in a matter of seconds. We were under sail, Genoa, staysail, main, mizzen. We are 58 feet and 40 tons.

The guy remains a dangerous jerk. Witnesses confirm
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Old 23-01-2021, 04:58   #8
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

That dredge has been around Antigua for a fair while. We did not have any problems with it. When fully loaded it is quite low in the water and I would imagine not very maneuverable. One encounter does not make a dangerous jerk.

It would be interesting to hear his thoughts from the other side. I would imagine it would be something like:

We were on our course to our disposal site. Autopilot on, course set. We hadn’t altered course or speed for a while when all of a sudden a sailboat changed direction and was now on course to hit us. We hailed him on the radio and he said he wasn’t going to move because he was a sailboat and had right of way. We tried to explain that we were fully laden and did not have much ability to turn sharply to avoid him and he argued more! Can you imagine, a little 40 ton sailboat trying to get us, a full ladened dredge to move? And the angle we were at, the only way to avoid him was to turn towards shore, not really possible for us to do that and then turn back out. Fortunately he realized the error of his ways and altered course, although he waited a lot longer than we were comfortable with. What a dangerous jerk! He will get himself killed one day.

This is tongue in cheek, but just imagine if the captain of the Elbe went running on here for every encounter he had and wrote his version down.

Point is, this seems like an encounter to me. Not worthy of a big announcement to the world of “danger” posed. It’s really an identify, assess, take action, continue about your day.

A small part of me wonders just how loud you announced it on the cruisers net every day since it happened......
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Old 23-01-2021, 05:40   #9
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

The AIS data from Marine traffic shows the path, the barge does about 8-9 knots fully laden, it also says the status of the vessel is "Restricted Maneuverability". Did you observe if he was showing the correct shapes on his mast? Restricted Maneuverability has nothing to do with channels, that is a vessel constrained by draft.

"Example: A sailboat (powered by sail alone) must keep out of the way of vessels engaged in fishing, constrained by draft, restricted in ability to maneuver, and not under command (all of the vessel types above it in this list), but not ordinary power driven vessels or seaplanes."


https://help.marinerslearningsystem....while-underway
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Old 23-01-2021, 06:23   #10
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

You should report it to the port authority and/or the Antigua Coast Guard, and hopefully they'll have a rules discussion with the offending party.
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Old 23-01-2021, 08:22   #11
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

You don't get to decide if they're actually restricted. If they're flying the dayshapes, and lights at night and telling you on the radio, then guess what? Treat them like they're restricted. Your recouse is to speak with the local CG or Port Authority but I have a pretty good idea how that would go.
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Old 23-01-2021, 08:52   #12
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

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Originally Posted by BillKny View Post
Oh lordy.... Another "rouge and dangerous" sailboat "captain" with a bug up his butt.

If you had to take "severe evasive actions" you were way too close and clearly being stupid. You might (or might not) have been right, but still stupid.

We sailed in and out of St Johns in Antigua last week--multiple times. The dredge was always easy to avoid. No, I did NOT insist that he avoid me. I called him on the radio once to coordinate passing arrangements, and he was clear and polite. There was no issue.

There are only two possibilities here. You are in the narrow part of the channel, and the dredge clearly has the right of way (Rule 9) or you are out past the narrow bit, and you have lots of room to avoid him.

It's "captains" like this who give all the rest of us sailing sailors a bad reputation.
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Old 23-01-2021, 09:07   #13
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post

This is a sand sucker dredge in the St John area...He refused to give way as we were approaching Deep Bay under sail. I hailed to assert that he was the give way vessel. He claimed “restricted”. We were in open water with sufficient depth, space and no restrictions during daylight hours. My Watchmate showed a zero CPA. We had to take severe evasive maneuvers to pass astern...
Then I'd suggest you were being something of a jerk. Whilst you're online, perhaps take time to Google the acronym 'WAFI'
Collision Regulations only come into effect when a 'risk of collision' exists; so if you were sailing in open water with sufficient depth, space and no restrictions during daylight hours. why the heck did you venture anywhere near him to begin with? The guy's trying to do a commercial job, whilst you're simply out playing; the seamanlike thing to do, is to go and play elsewhere; if'd you'd used the time spent asserting that he was the give way vessel in changing course slightly, you wouldn't have needed to take severe evasive action.
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Old 23-01-2021, 09:29   #14
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Re: Dangerous Yacht; Antigua

Name: ROXY

Type: Camper & Nicholson 58 Ketch

Regd. Michigan No.668283

Consider this vessel Rogue and dangerous. Several witnesses on this forum consider the skipper to be crazy and clearly wrong.
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Old 23-01-2021, 10:41   #15
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Re: Dangerous Dredge; Antigua

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He claims restricted at all times even when motoring to or from dumping when he is at sea and clearly motoring. You will probably not see necessary day shapes either.
Wrong on so many levels... When I interacted with him, he did carry the proper day shapes, but like most dredges all over the world they are almost impossible to see in the rigging. He also displays the proper RAM lights at night. I have seen them.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that because he is "motoring" he can not be "Restricted in Ability to Maneuver". Being underway under engine power does not preclude status as RAM.

If you are trying to assert that because he was motoring he can not be RAM, that is clearly wrong.
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