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Old 23-11-2020, 11:33   #31
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Re: Colregs again

I'll add this one to my personal list of reasons why if one wants to drift around to look at something in a power boat, you don't leave the helm and you keep the engine(s) running. If you want to shut down, drop an anchor.
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Old 23-11-2020, 11:41   #32
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes.





Being stationary is immaterial. No one is "forcing" anyone to be give-way. You just are, and you should clear out of there. The power boats grossly failed their obligation to detect in good time a potential collision, and take early and effective action to resolve it. Gross violation on their part.





That being said, the racing boat waited insanely long to make his own move and cut it insanely close. That is somewhat typical of racers but NOT good seamanship. That was very nearly a collision which could have easily killed someone.
Looking at the second video from Joe Robert does seem to indicate that the motorboats were more in the course as the majority of the other spectator boats were behind a line farther away.

My main confusion was not understanding that a power boat could be give way even with the engines off. So clearly the powerboats should have moved much sooner. But I agree 100% that the racer chose a very dangerous solution and does not exactly deserve high praise for expert handling.
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Old 23-11-2020, 11:47   #33
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Re: Colregs again

I think the new video shows more clearly that the angle between the cream/red power boat and the racing boat is such that the racing boat is overtaking. In that case, under COLREGS, Rule 18 (that sets the order of precedence allowing sail boats to stand-on when crossing power boats) is out the window, rule 13 applies - the racing boat is the give-way vessel. As Dockhead says, however, at the point shown in the videos they are both guilty of not taking early and substantial action.

The local event rules may alter this scenario, but they are incredibly vague:

Quote:
Spectator vessels must observe the exclusion zone, follow instructions from control vessels and keep clear of competing yachts
How does a competing yacht differentiate between a spectator vessel and some other vessel on the water? What signals does a "spectator" deploy to indicate their spectator status? There are reasons that every word in COLREGS gets reviewed and debated.
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Old 23-11-2020, 13:43   #34
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
I think the new video shows more clearly that the angle between the cream/red power boat and the racing boat is such that the racing boat is overtaking. In that case, under COLREGS, Rule 18 (that sets the order of precedence allowing sail boats to stand-on when crossing power boats) is out the window, rule 13 applies - the racing boat is the give-way vessel. As Dockhead says, however, at the point shown in the videos they are both guilty of not taking early and substantial action.

The local event rules may alter this scenario, but they are incredibly vague:

How does a competing yacht differentiate between a spectator vessel and some other vessel on the water? What signals does a "spectator" deploy to indicate their spectator status? There are reasons that every word in COLREGS gets reviewed and debated.
Well, we don't know, do we, how the event regulations would be interpreted. Were the powerboats in a spectator area? In which case the race boats should not have entered.

On the other hand, I don't see that as an overtaking situation. Maybe the Colregs treat it differently, but the cream colored boat double decker boat was stationary, clearly not moving, I think that in court of inquiry they would not consider that an "overtaking" situation.

But never the less, it was clearly foolish for Scallywag to pass that closely, even if he would have been judged to be the "stand on" vessel. Too close. Any misjudgment could have had serious consequences. The smaller boat which got underway could have moved the wrong way and left no clearance for the sailboat to go through. And have you noticed the sailboat without sails? Its mast looked to be very close to Scallywag's mainsail. I could imagine contact easily happening there.

I know that Scallywag was working hard to get ahead of the boat to its windward and would be loath to lose any speed or position, but a quick stuff to weather could have gained them 20 feet of lateral clearance and would have been much safer. But it would have to have been done far enough in advance so as not to sow confusion among the powerboats.

And again, it would be helpful to know what the event rules were.
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Old 23-11-2020, 13:58   #35
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Looking at the second video from Joe Robert does seem to indicate that the motorboats were more in the course as the majority of the other spectator boats were behind a line farther away.

My main confusion was not understanding that a power boat could be give way even with the engines off. So clearly the powerboats should have moved much sooner. But I agree 100% that the racer chose a very dangerous solution and does not exactly deserve high praise for expert handling.
If you're not tied up or at anchor and showing a ball, you're under way, and it's your problem and your responsibility to keep the engine running or start it up in time to fulfill your responsibilities under the Rules.

No one is obligated to guess whether your engine is shut down or not.


And whether or not you're in the "course" or not is also irrelevant (unless there is something in the local rules different from the COLREGS). You have no right to drift around with motor off and sails down, not tied up or at anchor, and fail to give way to a vessel under sail, regardless of whether you're in a channel, race course, or whatever -- in any navigable waters.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:02   #36
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Re: Colregs again

COLREGS defines "overtaking":

Quote:
A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
The only thing that matters in overtaking is whether or not one vessel is more or less than 22.5 degrees abaft the beam of the other. Scallywag appears from the videos (with all the caveats about angles, perspectives, etc.) to be > 22.5 degrees abaft the beam of the power boat. Makes absolutely no difference how fast the power boat is moving (or not moving), if Scallywag is closing with the power boat (very clear from the videos that she is) and is > 22.5 degrees abaft the beam then she is overtaking.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:10   #37
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
COLREGS defines "overtaking":

The only thing that matters in overtaking is whether or not one vessel is more or less than 22.5 degrees abaft the beam of the other. Scallywag appears from the videos (with all the caveats about angles, perspectives, etc.) to be > 22.5 degrees abaft the beam of the power boat. Makes absolutely no difference how fast the power boat is moving (or not moving), if Scallywag is closing with the power boat (very clear from the videos that she is) and is > 22.5 degrees abaft the beam then she is overtaking.

You're absolutely right; I missed that one.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:26   #38
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Re: Colregs again

Well, the event rules are quoted just above:

Quote:
Spectator vessels must observe the exclusion zone, follow instructions from control vessels and keep clear of competing yachts
Note the final phrase: "keep clear of competing yachts".

To me, this completely puts the onus of any non-competing vessel to actively keep out of the way, and drifting with no maneuverability does not comply. Obviously not COLREGs, but pretty clear to me.

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Old 23-11-2020, 14:38   #39
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, the event rules are quoted just above:



Note the final phrase: "keep clear of competing yachts".

To me, this completely puts the onus of any non-competing vessel to actively keep out of the way, and drifting with no maneuverability does not comply. Obviously not COLREGs, but pretty clear to me.

Jim
Playing devil's advocate for a moment...

What defines a spectator vessel and how does one determine the same? Similar question for 'control vessels'

But hey, I agree with your assessment that is pretty clear and I know how the 'pub test' would decide!
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:39   #40
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, the event rules are quoted just above:

Note the final phrase: "keep clear of competing yachts".

To me, this completely puts the onus of any non-competing vessel to actively keep out of the way, and drifting with no maneuverability does not comply. Obviously not COLREGs, but pretty clear to me.

Jim
Yes, but what we don't know is whether or not the spectator boats were outside of the exclusion zone, or inside of it, or if Scallywag sailed out of the exclusion zone.

When I have been in powerboats watching races like this, there is often an exclusion zone where you can't go (and outside of that the raceboats can't go). If you are behind the line you expect to be safe, and any raceboat which charges into that area is not only endanging everyone, but violating the rules of the event.

But, still we don't know.
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:45   #41
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, the event rules are quoted just above:



Note the final phrase: "keep clear of competing yachts".

To me, this completely puts the onus of any non-competing vessel to actively keep out of the way, and drifting with no maneuverability does not comply. Obviously not COLREGs, but pretty clear to me.

Jim
Jim,

In principle I agree with you. But what about the bloke who is out fishing in his tinny and could not care less about the yachts racing? All he cares about is whether or not the fish are biting, and all the other boats around mucking up the fishing. Is he a "spectator boat"? How is the competing yacht to determine if he is a spectator boat (in which case the yacht can reasonably expect the vessel to keep clear) or someone out for a Sunday sail who doesn't care about the spectacle (in which do the event rules apply since they say "spectator vessel" but don't define same)?

In this particular case the presence of the video from the deck of the power boat tracking the racing yachts provides pretty clear evidence that they are spectating, but....

[Edit] I missed the Wotname had said the same thing, and I agree with about the results of the pub test.[/edit]
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:53   #42
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
I think the new video shows more clearly that the angle between the cream/red power boat and the racing boat is such that the racing boat is overtaking. In that case, under COLREGS, Rule 18 (that sets the order of precedence allowing sail boats to stand-on when crossing power boats) is out the window, rule 13 applies - the racing boat is the give-way vessel. As Dockhead says, however, at the point shown in the videos they are both guilty of not taking early and substantial action.



The local event rules may alter this scenario, but they are incredibly vague:







How does a competing yacht differentiate between a spectator vessel and some other vessel on the water? What signals does a "spectator" deploy to indicate their spectator status? There are reasons that every word in COLREGS gets reviewed and debated.


I think the exclusion zone bit applies
I further think the racing boat treated the power boat much like a mark and we know how racers treat marks on a course

But this is simply my thoughts on the topic and will change with more education
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Old 23-11-2020, 14:55   #43
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
What defines a spectator vessel and how does one determine the same?
Wottie, I think this is pretty clear. A competing yacht is one who is racing, ie has officially entered and started the race. They surely know who they are... they've paid a big entry fee! And they know all the other entrants. EVERYONE else is constrained to keep clear.

The quoted rule segment does not say if the competing yachts must keep clear of the spectator areas, nor do we know if, once clear of the defined spectator areas, the special rules still apply. I've surely seen views of the area outside Sydney heads with the maxi yachts roaring along with fast m/v mixed into the melee. (It is kinda gratifying when the sailing boats outrun the gin palaces!).

I now believe that this event wasn't the S2H, but a lead-up race with a somewhat smaller spectator fleet than for the main event... but apparently still with special harbour rules for the event.

I guess that my safety rule about avoiding Sydney harbour on Boxing day needs to have an annex covering such events before the Big Day!

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Old 23-11-2020, 15:21   #44
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Re: Colregs again

More details. The event in question happened in 2016. A harbor race/tuneup for S2H. From the skipper of Scallywag:

Quote:
On Tuesday the Hong Kong yacht super maxi Scallywag and the 80-footer Beau Geste both had close calls with a boat and a small ferry at the start of the 14 nautical mile harbour race on Tuesday.

“We were very, very lucky that didn’t end up in tears,’’ Witt said of the near-miss.

I reckon we were two inches away from hitting one and four inches away from the other and there was no where to go.

“That was seriously close.’’
From the article on the near mishap:

Quote:
Unlike Tuesday, a harbour exclusion zone will be in place for the Sydney to Hobart start which endeavours to keep spectators and yachts well away from each other.
source

Reading between the lines, no special event zones or rules in play, COLREGS applies.

[Edit] The third vessel, the one that backs away and opens the gap for Scallywag is actually the Roads and Maritime patrol vessel that was meant to be keeping other vessels away from the competitors. Again reading between the lines, the competitors at the port end of the line ended up much deeper off the start line than anticipated and thus didn't sail through the cleared area.
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Old 23-11-2020, 15:37   #45
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Wottie, I think this is pretty clear. A competing yacht is one who is racing, ie has officially entered and started the race. They surely know who they are... they've paid a big entry fee! And they know all the other entrants. EVERYONE else is constrained to keep clear.
........
Yeah but....(Wottie still wearing his' oversized Devil's advocate hat).

You say "EVERYONE"

The literature says "spectator vessels" and then goes on to mention other vessels (eg "control vessels").

If the literature wanted to mean "EVERYONE", surely they should say it. The devil says they only mean "spectators" and further, it means the COLREGS still apply to all other vessels on the water eg control vessels and any other working vessels.

Now you may think that Wotties Devil's advocate hat looks like this - and his opinion is like this - . And you would likely to be CORRECT.

Doffing the DA hat...

I am sure that deep down in the legal stuff, the control vessels have the power to move any vessel away from the racing vessels.
EDIT: on days when there is a harbour exclusion zone.
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