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Old 20-11-2020, 16:57   #16
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Re: Colregs again

As Jim Cate said - its not a COLREG issue, the event permit issued by NSW ROADS AND MARITIME inlcudes a range of special rules that override and or supplement the COLREGS etc, here is a guide to exclusion zones etc for last year:

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents...ents-guide.pdf
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Old 20-11-2020, 17:06   #17
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Re: Colregs again

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Under Colregs if a vessel is stationary for whatever reason but not blocking a channel or otherwise impeding navigation but does have the ability to move, is that vessel considered under way for the purposes of Colregs?
YES! RUle 3(i): "The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground"

Quote:

And if a second vessel that would be stand on if both vessels were moving does
Misconception! whether or not an underway vessel is moving does not alter the situation.

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that then force the stationary vessel into the position of give way and then become obligated to get under way and move?
Not a matter of "force them". They are already the give way vessel and obligated to keep clear of the sailboat.
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Old 20-11-2020, 17:07   #18
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Re: Colregs again

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Since the power boats were not moving so no steerage way possibly restricted in ability to maneuver?


A common misunderstanding. RAM has nothing to do with whether a vessel actually can or cannot maneuver. It is "By the nature of her work" cannot maneuver as otherwise required. Vessel must be doing some work that will not allow her to maneuver, example dredging, tending bouys, etc, and MUST BE DISPLAYING LIGHTS OR SHAPES FOR A VESSEL RESTRICTED IN ABILITY TO MANEUVER. (Red, white, red lights and/or ball diamond ball.) No lights or shapes, or work, no heightened status. A highway analogy would be the truck painting the line down the middle of the road. The truck could maneuver to avoid a collision if it had to, but that would mess up the line.
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Old 20-11-2020, 17:47   #19
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Re: Colregs again

Magnificent piece of boat handling, missed all of them.
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Old 20-11-2020, 18:19   #20
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Re: Colregs again

If the larger power boat and the sailboat (both left to port of Scallywag) are underway then this is an overtaking situation, with Scallywag the overtaking vessel (very clear the sailboat has Scallywag > 22.5 degrees abaft the beam, power boat also looks that way but could be a bit of interpretation). Rule 13 applies and Scallywag is the give-way vessel.

The smaller power boat (left to starboard), OTOH, is bows on to Scallywag so a crossing situation and the power boat is give way.
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Old 20-11-2020, 19:07   #21
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Re: Colregs again

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Hmm... it should never be 'all of a sudden' . There is a requirement for both of you to keep a lookout at all times etc.

If it clear to the sail boat that you haven't taken the required action in time to avoid a collision, then he must.
OK, bad wording. I'm sitting on my little motor boat with the engine off, fadrift and fishing. I start focusing more on a sailboat off my starboard bow that is approaching rapidly and maintaining a steady course and constant bearing.

If the motor boat was under power and moving then clearly the sailboat would be stand on but what if on the motor boat the engine is off and they are fishing for recreation?

In practice I have encountered this situation many times, always on the sailboat. If I'm sure the motor boat isn't moving or making any move to avoid then I will alter course, well in advance to pass clear of the motor boat.

I
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Old 20-11-2020, 19:16   #22
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Re: Colregs again

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
YES! RUle 3(i): "The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground"

Misconception! whether or not an underway vessel is moving does not alter the situation.

Not a matter of "force them". They are already the give way vessel and obligated to keep clear of the sailboat.
OK, moving or not, engine running or not, a power vessel not at anchor is underway by Colregs definition.

As I think about the ramifications it is logical and consistent as it would be difficult or impossible to sort all the boats around into moving or not moving categories. Thus all power boats not moored, anchored, etc are treated the same.

Still think that was a dumb move by Scallywag. I believe Jim had it right when he speculated the person at the helm on Scallywag didn't see the smaller power boat. Either that or possibly he saw it and didn't care.
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Old 21-11-2020, 15:25   #23
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Re: Colregs again

Either that or he was acting in accordance with the aquatic event permit which overrides the col regs for that event
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Old 21-11-2020, 23:30   #24
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Colregs again

A motor boat fishing would be required to display the appropriate day shapes.

The fact it’s motor is on or off is irelevant in relation to the colleges

The motor boat was the give way vessel , it shouldn’t have been anywhere near the sailing boats

And “ yes” if you are drifting around enjoying your pink gin in your mobo , you are the give way vessel to a boat under sail
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Old 22-11-2020, 00:14   #25
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Re: Colregs again

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A motor boat fishing would be required to display the appropriate day shapes.
"The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability. "



i.e. a commercial fishing vessel with cumbersome gear, not some guy dangling a line or two from a runabout.
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Old 22-11-2020, 00:19   #26
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Re: Colregs again

indeed I was being a bit tongue in cheeck about the fishing day shapes. As I said the mobo was the give way and shouldn’t have been anywhere near the sailing boats.
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Old 23-11-2020, 05:59   #27
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Re: Colregs again

Same incident. Different perspective.
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Old 23-11-2020, 08:52   #28
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Re: Colregs again

Don't the Aussies consider sailing a contact sport?


Let's get back to the hypothetical motorboat drifting with engine off when a sailboat approaches. If you say the motorboat's obligations are unchanged whether the motor is on or off, what about the sailboat which has an auxiliary engine that is switched off? Isn't it true that a sailboat's obligations change depending on whether the engine in on and in gear or off? What if we put a small steadying sail on the motorboat? Since it is not propelled by machinery (switched off) and is at least to some extent moved by sail, has it been magically transformed into a sailboat?
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Old 23-11-2020, 10:40   #29
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Re: Colregs again

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Originally Posted by fgd3 View Post
Let's get back to the hypothetical motorboat drifting with engine off when a sailboat approaches. If you say the motorboat's obligations are unchanged whether the motor is on or off, what about the sailboat which has an auxiliary engine that is switched off? Isn't it true that a sailboat's obligations change depending on whether the engine in on and in gear or off? What if we put a small steadying sail on the motorboat? Since it is not propelled by machinery (switched off) and is at least to some extent moved by sail, has it been magically transformed into a sailboat?
COLREGS define sailing vessels and power driven vessels.
Quote:
Rule 3 - General Definitions
(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
So, yes, the sailing vessel becomes a power-driven vessel when it starts using its engine. I don't really know what a "steadying sail" is. If you mean a sail on the stern that helps keep the head to windward while drifting (underway, not making way), that is not a vessel capable of maneuvering with that sail, so is unlikely to be considered a "sailing vessel."
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Old 23-11-2020, 11:29   #30
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Re: Colregs again

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
. .. Under Colregs if a vessel is stationary for whatever reason but not blocking a channel or otherwise impeding navigation but does have the ability to move, is that vessel considered under way for the purposes of Colregs?

Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
And if a second vessel that would be stand on if both vessels were moving does that then force the stationary vessel into the position of give way and then become obligated to get under way and move?

Being stationary is immaterial. No one is "forcing" anyone to be give-way. You just are, and you should clear out of there. The power boats grossly failed their obligation to detect in good time a potential collision, and take early and effective action to resolve it. Gross violation on their part.





That being said, the racing boat waited insanely long to make his own move and cut it insanely close. That is somewhat typical of racers but NOT good seamanship. That was very nearly a collision which could have easily killed someone.
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