Buying a dutch registered boat

[scargo]

Anyone has any experience buying a dutch registered boat, de-flagging it and registering in Canada ?
Basically I am trying to figure-out what is the right process to do this right.
The boat has a Dutch ICP registration and a Dutch Kadaster registration. The owner also confirmed there's a mortgage on the boat.


Thanks in advance.

[scargo]

No one has ever bought a dutch flagged vessel ?

[BM2023]

In general, within Europe, Norway and the Netherlands have no obligation of registering pleasure crafts.

So it is very well possible that when you buy a vessel in the Netherlands, that it is not even formally registered.

If it is registered, my advice would be to only buy the vessel if the seller supplies a Certificate of Withdrawal. Otherwise you will have to organise that yourself. In case the seller is not prepared to cooperate after the sale, then you will not be able to withdraw it from the ships registrar, as the seller has to sign the requests to withdraw it from the ships registrar.

If the vessel has never been registered, then a declaration can be issued by the ships registrar that the vessel is not registered in the ships registrar, something the Canadian ships registrar may require if no Certificate of Withdrawal can be supplied.

Note that the Certificate of Withdrawal will only be issued if the owner has fulfilled their mortgage obligations. As long as those have not been met, no Certificate of Withdrawal will be issued.

[scargo]

Originally Posted by Lorrendraaier

In general, within Europe, Norway and the Netherlands have no obligation of registering pleasure crafts.

So it is very well possible that when you buy a vessel in the Netherlands, that it is not even formally registered.

If it is registered, my advice would be to only buy the vessel if the seller supplies a Certificate of Withdrawal. Otherwise you will have to organise that yourself. In case the seller is not prepared to cooperate after the sale, then you will not be able to withdraw it from the ships registrar, as the seller has to sign the requests to withdraw it from the ships registrar.

If the vessel has never been registered, then a declaration can be issued by the ships registrar that the vessel is not registered in the ships registrar, something the Canadian ships registrar may require if no Certificate of Withdrawal can be supplied.

Note that the Certificate of Withdrawal will only be issued if the owner has fulfilled their mortgage obligations. As long as those have not been met, no Certificate of Withdrawal will be issued.

Thank you so much ! That's valuable information.


Actually, the vessel I am interested in is registered in both ICP and Kadaster.
So I guess I need a certificate of withdrawal from both registers.


It is in the Kadaster, because it has a mortgage. But the Kadaster registration certificate I have, does not show the information related to the mortgage. Do you know of way to find out but that ? Just to be sure the bank will get payed before I take ownership of the vessel.


Thanks again.

[BM2023]

Originally Posted by scargo

Actually, the vessel I am interested in is registered in both ICP and Kadaster.
So I guess I need a certificate of withdrawal from both registers.


It is in the Kadaster, because it has a mortgage. But the Kadaster registration certificate I have, does not show the information related to the mortgage. Do you know of way to find out but that ? Just to be sure the bank will get payed before I take ownership of the vessel.

An ICP is an unofficial document which states the ownership of the vessel and I have my doubts if the Canadian ships registrar will accept that as Certificate of Withdrawal. To answer your question, you do not have to have it withdrawn from the register of the Watersportverbond, the organisation that issues ICP's.


Withdrawal from the Kadaster is leading, as that is the formal ships registrar. If you do not withdraw it, the seller will formal remain owner of the vessel.

What happens is when one applies for a withdrawal, the request is first sent to the courthouse. They check if the mortgage has been paid-off. If paid-off, the documents are sent back to the Kadaster, who then removes the vessel from the ships registrar and issues the Certificate of Withdrawal. If not, the courthouse will instruct the Kadaster not to withdraw the vessel from the ships registrar.

If two days later the seller does pay-off the mortgage, then the procedure starts all over again.

[Montanan]

Since there is a mortgage on the vessel, which likely has been registered with the Kadaster to attain priority of lien, that obligation needs to be settled at time of closing of your purchase. It may well require that the funds to pay off the mortgage to be realized from the funds you pay to acquire the boat. The escrow agent that is administering the sale of the boat, should accept a payment from you, utilize such funds to make payment to the mortgagor and then obtain release of the lien from the mortgagor so as to be able to provide the Kadaster with documentation that the lien has been released and additionally that title has then been transferred to you, i.e., a de-flagging of the boat. The funds if any that remain after paying off the mortgage are then paid through by the escrow agent to the prior owner.

The sequence of the funds flow are important.

You make a payment to the escrow agent.
The escrow agent settles with the mortgagor and obtains a release of the lien.
The Kadaster is notified of the release of the lien and of title transfer, de-registering of ownership and Certificate of Withdrawal of the flagging [application of the nationality of the vessel].
Any remaining proceeds of sale after payment of liens are paid to the prior owner.
A Bill of Sale and Title is granted to you. Clear of the mortgage lien and of claim of ownership by the prior owner, [but still subject to any unknown claims on the vessel by third parties].
You then register the vessel with Canada.
You go sailing.

The ICP is an unofficial statement of ownership, useful only in designated internal waters in Europe. An ICP is pretty much a proof of nothing as it does not provide titling, recordation of liens, or the imposing of nationality to the vessel, but I would request and confirm that the vessel be de-registered from that informal registry, as well as that is a requirement of the owner that registered the vessel, it is not your requirement as the purchaser, to notify them of a change in ownership. You don't want to have loose ends and uncleared registries, even if the registry is of quasi-legality as that could provide for confusion in the future.

[scargo]

Thank you Lorrendraaier and Montanan
Great info guys. It should be added to an FAQ somewhere.


Actually I had a Canadian escrow agent, but I think it becomes clear and important to have a Dutch notary here to help with the escrow, the mortgage and the Kadaster withdrawal.

Again Thank you.

[Montanan]

Reference link to the Kadaster, available in Dutch [which is Greek to me] and English which language has some similarities to Montanan.

It will explain the deregistration and / or transfer of ownership process.
https://www.kadaster.nl/situaties/bo...ragen-gegevens


Contact
088 - 183 22 00



To view ownership information:
https://www.kadaster.nl/producten/bo...formatie-schip



To view Mortgage information ship
Check whether there is a mortgage or seizure on a boat or ship

Certified document
Do you want to know whether there is a mortgage or seizure on a boat or ship? You can see this in Mortgage information ship if it is registered with us. This is a certified document.
https://www.kadaster.nl/producten/bo...formatie-schip




To gain evidence of cancellation of ship's registration
A handy proof if you want to register your ship with a land registry abroad

Show that your boat or ship has been deregistered
With a certificate of cancellation of the ship's registration you can show that a boat or ship has been deregistered from the public registers of the Land Registry. You need this proof if you want to register your boat or ship with a land registry abroad.

What information is on the evidence?
name and brand
names of persons who have rights
mortgages and attachments registered in the Netherlands on the boat or ship
https://www.kadaster.nl/producten/bo...teboekstelling

[Montanan]

FYI:

Canada Transport Vessel Registration website. Explains what is required and provides the documents.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-trans...gister-vessels

Enjoy your new to you boat.

[scargo]

One more question guys. I have been told by the Dutch seller, that according to his notary, you need broker to do the offer to purchase contract. And he thinks "it's the law"



For me, it is hard to believe that two individuals can not buy/sell a boat without using a broker.


What do you think about this ? any first hand experience ?


Thanks in advance

[Montanan]

If he says it is the law, ask for the code reference.

I doubt that one must use a broker in such a transaction, neither a seller's broker or a buyer's broker.

Reference suggest you might give them a call or email.

https://www.blenheim.nl/blog/buying-boat-Netherlands


European Yacht Network
http://e-y-n.com/text/Algemene_voorw...tuigen/~7.html

[scargo]

Originally Posted by Montanan

If he says it is the law, ask for the code reference.

I doubt that one must use a broker in such a transaction, neither a seller's broker or a buyer's broker.

Reference suggest you might give them a call or email.

https://www.blenheim.nl/blog/buying-boat-Netherlands


European Yacht Network
http://e-y-n.com/text/Algemene_voorw...tuigen/~7.html

Well, what happened actually is I hired a Canadian agent (not a broker) to do all the paperwork. So I sent him all the conditions the seller (who did not have a broker at the beginning) and I agreed on and he drafted an offer to purchase contract similar to what I've seen before. I signed it and sent a copy to the seller who requested some delay during which he requested, I guess, help from a notary and a broker to go through the contract.
After that he came back saying that we need a notary, and I agreed on that. I prefer sending a deposit to notary escrow account. But than he came back later saying he hired a broker, because it is required by the law, to do the paperwork and he will send me the contract.


So I don't know what to think. It's been 3 weeks now that we have a deal on a boat that the seller is willing to sell and that I am willing to buy, but we are unable to sign a contract.



So even when I try to avoid the brokers, I end up finding them in my way.

[BM2023]

Originally Posted by scargo

After that he came back saying that we need a notary, and I agreed on that. I prefer sending a deposit to notary escrow account. But than he came back later saying he hired a broker, because it is required by the law, to do the paperwork and he will send me the contract.

It is not known to me if the vessel is in the Netherlands or that the owner is Dutch, but in the Netherlands there is no law that depicts that when selling a vessel paperwork has to be handled by a broker, lawyer and/or notary.

I can however imagine that he hired a broker, if you are not used to selling a boat and not familiar with the paperwork involved.

Tip : check if the Dutch broker is an accredited HISWA broker, as you are then assured that you are dealing with a professional.

[scargo]

The owner is Dutch and the vessel is registred in the Kadaster because there's a mortgage on it.

Originally Posted by Lorrendraaier

I can however imagine that he hired a broker, if you are not used to selling a boat and not familiar with the paperwork involved.

Well, I had an agent doing all the paperwork. The agent wrote an offer to purchase contract that I signed and sent to the owner. But the owner never signed it.
I sold my boat, last year without a broker. I believe the owner bad sold a couple of boats, with or without a broker, I don't know. But I believe this the first time, he is selling a boat with a mortgage on it.

Originally Posted by Lorrendraaier

Tip : check if the Dutch broker is an accredited HISWA broker, as you are then assured that you are dealing with a professional.

Thanks for the link. Actually, the broker is HISWA accredited.