Be Careful with U.S. Customs -- A Cautionary Tale

[contrail]

Originally Posted by BillsWife1

For goodness sake. I did not say he was a criminal. I said there are holes in this article/story!

Saying there are holes in an article is not helpful. That's true of every news story; they aren't legal briefs and they get shortened. It's not unusual or pertinent.

Saying there are holes in a story is something else, but I, for one, see none. I, myself, have walked around with a large amount of cash, legitimately, and on several occasions, both in the US and abroad. Sometimes to buy things. Other reasons, as well. For example, I live in the BVI but cannot transfer more than $1000 per day from my Bank of America account to my BVI account. Tried to fit in many different procedures they have, but none quite work, despite all the advertising. What am I to do? I have four B of A accounts, so that I can move at least $4K, and I am surprised that has never caused any attention.

When I cruised in the Sea of Cortez, there were hardly any ATM's. I remember being in Loreto, on the Baja side, with $160, and realizing that the next ATM I would see, in Guaymas, on the mainland side, was in six weeks. You bet I wished I had had some more cash!

I used to teach golf in the DR, over the Christmas and New Year's holidays. I was paid cash by the students. How was I supposed to get that money back to the US? By the way, if you live in the BVI, but don't work here, which gives you a valid work permit and BVI Social Security number, try opening a bank account. Sorry, can't do it.

The world is not all electronic, thank goodness. But, I suppose that the 70% of US citizens who don't even have passports, think that maybe it's all the same.

To say this story has holes in it requires making a number of suppositions that are not based on anything in the articles. Suppose all you want, but they are fake holes. And, these seizures are a terrible process.

[ALAIN97133]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This is chilling: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...9Ug&ocid=wispr Note that U.S. law enforcement agencies, including CBP, have broad powers, unlike in other civilized countries, to seize property from you for little or no reason. And for sure, never carry large sums of cash across U.S. borders, even if you have scrupulously followed all of the rules!

Hi! You MUST declare if you carry more than 10 000 €uros or $10 000 when you go through customs wether going out or coming into a country... If you don't, they can seize your money & forget about getting your money back. It's to prevent drug dealers & terrorists from moving money to finance their misdeeds ! It's a simple rule & you just can't pretend you didn't know

[JPA Cate]

It is that the idea of living frugally, not spending all you earn, is pretty rare in contemporary American society. That makes it hard for any LEO and most people in the society to consider that anyone might have saved up enough money to be gone from work for a year of travel. It is far outside the "norm." And, living frugally, isn't a goal in a consumer society, collecting *stuff* is.

The presumption of innocence, that we Americans seem to have lost in practice, is something that came down to us from English Common Law, and it is not a world standard. As a cruiser, it is well to be aware that what happened to the man in the story could happen to any one of us, and in any country. ....And, lawyers will quickly disperse that man's money....how can he try and get it back without them? Dockhead's right, this is deeply shocking, and should not happen in America....but it does.

Worrisome, eh?

Ann

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by ALAIN97133

Hi! You MUST declare if you carry more than 10 000 €uros or $10 000 when you go through customs wether going out or coming into a country... If you don't, they can seize your money & forget about getting your money back. It's to prevent drug dealers & terrorists from moving money to finance their misdeeds ! It's a simple rule & you just can't pretend you didn't know

Alain, you do not understand the situation.



He was boarding a domestic flight, from Ohio to New York. CBP did not give the 10,000 dollar thing as a reason for the seizure.



It's was the man's stated intent to declare the money at the port of departure, which would have been New York, not Cleveland.



This has nothing to do with foreign cash reporting requirements.



As to those of you who find it suspicious that a 64 year old immigrant might have amassed the great fortune of not quite $60K... That much money has to be suspicious- that is some really terrible thinking. For shame, I say.

[senormechanico]

Back in the Wild West days, the stagecoaches got stopped, searched and robbed by bad guys.
This is what's happening as described by this thread.

The only difference?

In the Wild West, the bad guys got their comeuppance on the spot by the stage coach driver and his assistant.
I believe that's where the phrase "Riding Shotgun" came from.

[achil]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, you are supposed to file in the airport where you make the international departure. Not in a transit airport. He was following the rules.

From the actual form: C. Travelers—Travelers carrying currency or other monetary instruments with them shall file FinCEN Form 105 at the time of entry into the United States

or at the time of departure from the United States with the Customs officer in charge at "any" Customs port of entry or departure.

Notice the word "any" above. Like I mentioned Cleveland is an International Airport with customs that he was flying from and the most logical place to file and get some form of receipt.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Contrail - Exactly

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by achil

From the actual form: C. Travelers—Travelers carrying currency or other monetary instruments with them shall file FinCEN Form 105 at the time of entry into the United States

or at the time of departure from the United States with the Customs officer in charge at "any" Customs port of entry or departure.

Notice the word "any" above. Like I mentioned Cleveland is an International Airport with customs that he was flying from and the most logical place to file and get some form of receipt.

Right- also notice the phrase "at the time of departure from the United States". That was New York, not Cleveland. He said that whas where he planned to do it, during the 4 hour layover.



Newark would be much more logical than Cleveland, since that was his port of departure from the USA.



But, what's your point, anyway? Nobody is saying that he ran afoul of the $10K reporting requirements. They took his money on nothing but suspicion.



No charges, no amount on the receipt. Just "Hey, I think you're up to something, I don't like the way you look, I don't buy your story, and your cash is now our cash" (Insert any reason here).



This kind of thing is, in my view, indefensible in a society which is supposed to have constitutional protections against unwarranted seizures.



Maybe some of you who think that there's something obviously suspicious about a guy flying with 60k need to get out more. If the guy took that long to save that money, the exchange rate spread would seem like too much to swallow.


Factor that in with banks potentially being watched- I certainly understand why he would want to bring cash.



Dockhead has dealt in cash around the world-it works that way in places.



But, ultimately, this guy had all this cash taken from him based on nothing more than the determination of a LEO. No due process, no charges, nothing. Just taken.



I don't see how anybody can see that as anything other than a terrible abuse of power. But, that's just me.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by achil

From the actual form: C. Travelers—Travelers carrying currency or other monetary instruments with them shall file FinCEN Form 105 at the time of entry into the United States

or at the time of departure from the United States with the Customs officer in charge at "any" Customs port of entry or departure.

Notice the word "any" above. Like I mentioned Cleveland is an International Airport with customs that he was flying from and the most logical place to file and get some form of receipt.

It says at the time of departure from the United States. You are supposed to do it when you leave.

But what relevance does it have in any case? He wasn't even accused of failing to declare the cash.

More about the case here:

Cleveland Forfeiture - Institute for Justice



They sure look like horrible terrorist money-launderers, don't they?

The whole complaint can be read here: http://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/201...erty-Filed.pdf

Note well that with the burden of proof on Kazazi, all of the allegations of fact in the complaint have to be backed up by proof.

What is astonishing is that not only was Kazazi not accused of any crime, but CPB didn't even file a forfeiture proceeding, and the deadline has passed. They just took his cash, sent him on, and forgot about him. They didn't even inform him of WHY the money was taken, until a month later. And they still don't give the money back!


The Kazazis are being represented by the right-wing advocacy group Institute for Justice. It's nice to see that these core values cut across ideological lines. National Review:

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...without-cause/

[Sailorbob8599]

In this day and age, $58,000 is NOT a huge amount of money especially when ordinary working class homes in major Canadian cities sell for three million bucks or more; in fact, 58 grand will barely buy you a decent car today.
Search & seizure is on the rise & is quite prevalent with Border enforcement authorities. U.S. CBP appear to be more aggressive than Canadian Customs. Definitely more intimidating, & forceful.
Some years ago, I worked for the Canadian subsidiary of a major U.S. Corporation & was asked to attend a meeting at the U.S. Head Office. My travels took me from Vancouver B.C.through SeaTac Airport, Seattle, where for whatever reason, I passed through a security check again, even though I had cleared U.S. Customs prior to boarding my flight in Vancouver B.C.
During the security check, I was told to empty my pockets & place everything on a table ... with which I complied ... my wallet was removed from the table & taken to an area just out of my line of sight. It was returned to me LESS U$60 ... I questioned the officer who appeared to be in charge, & was told no money had been removed & if it wasn't in my wallet now, then I never had it in the first place.
This happened around 1983 & I never did recover that cash.

[Scotty Kiwi]

People who have had relatively smaller amounts of cash or assets seized don't complain much and don't go public.

To complain and be heard most folk need a lawyer. The lawyer wants money up front to start the process. Your spare money/assets are no longer available to you.

To go public, you risk the broader public, who still fundamentally trust authority and think "no smoke without fire." - "Authority wouldn't seize assets unless they really though something was wrong." So if you go public, and if you do get listened to, a the people around you may begin to distrust you. You could loose job, fall out with neighbours etc.

For a cruising yachtie, these potential consequences are more relevant.

I'm aware of a family in NZ who had $ 2 million in bank savings and investments first frozen and later taken. No crime proven but suspicion that his long past tax planning was borderline illegal (tax - not criminal). This suspicion not tested in court. (The suspected illegal activity was outside statute of limitations time for prosecution). The family kept their farm though, worth another $ 2 million. It was made clear, should the family challenge it, they risked their reputation in the community, and should they challenge it then they authorities "may also seize the farm". So the family just sucked it up.

To be clear - I fairly sure there is no statute of limitations in this kind of legislation - if authorities "suspect" your cash or assets are the proceeds of a crime or are derived from a crime 30 years ago, they can still seize, and retain.

This is so obviously ripe for abuse, and it we will at some stage hear of it happening to people in our cruising community. Because it's happening in the wider community, and on the face of it, it's happening as intended (more or less) by our legislators.

[achil]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It says at the time of departure from the United States. You are supposed to do it when you leave.
But what relevance does it have in any case? He wasn't even accused of failing to declare the cash.

More about the case here:

Cleveland Forfeiture - Institute for Justice

Attachment 171021

They sure look like horrible terrorist money-launderers, don't they?

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...without-cause/

Why not say he will do it when he gets to the 12 mile limit.

The point is if he lived close enough to the airport in Cleveland, he could have done it the day before and he would not be in the trouble he is in now. Leaving it to the last minute is not a good idea; his plane could be delayed for any number of reasons leaving him no time to get it done in Newark.

Personally, I doubt he ever intended to file that form. His interview with that rag was after he was coached by his attorney; you don't hear him saying he said that to the customs people at Cleveland!

I don't know how you or anybody can tell what a money launderer or a drug dealer looks like. I always thought they come in all shapes and sizes with no regard for nationality or education.

I don't know if he is guilty of anything or not, I just know that I am hearing one side of a story that he was coached by an attorney before giving his story.

Years ago I had a run-in with our IRS. They kept billing me for money I didn't owe and I kept writing them and sending them evidence proving I didn't owe them anything. The straw that broke the camels back was when they threatened to lien my property if they didn't get the money they were billing me for by a certain date. I took a day off work to go down to the local office and did get it cleared up. The guy there told me the problem was that the people that were sending me the bills were not in the office that was getting my mail with explanations and proof I didn't owe anything. None of the IRS guys were talking to each other and had I not gone to the local office there would have been liens filed against my property.

I am no lover of big government, but we do have huge drug problems in this country, and money laundering from a number illegal activities including white slavery. Those of us that are law abiding need to realize that the inconveniences we have to go through sometimes id necessary.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by BillsWife1

For goodness sake. I did not say he was a criminal. I said there are holes in this article/story!

you may not have said so but you certainly alluded to it.

Originally Posted by BillsWife1

These responses are killing me! I tried to go on to something else but I just can't get it out of my head.

First of all there are two sides to every story, and this article is only presenting one side. So as usual all the lemmings that can't think for themselves pile on to the big bad government. Now I'm not saying that there is not room for improvement in our judicial process because there is. But there are holes in this article that lead a thinking person to say...hey there might be more to this than what I'm reading.

First someone wrote he was probably a hard working guy that lived frugally, scrimped and saved. Well that may or may not be true, but it can not be assumed because no where in the story is this presented.

Quite frankly if he could not understand the English language well enough to answer questions on where the money came from then, what are the chances that he could obtain employment sufficient to pay his family's living expenses AND putting his son through college AND still save. In fact the article states..."he had no verifiable source of income."

Moving on...he couldn't understand the English language and needed an interpreter but could understand the nuances of the law well enough to claim that he was going to declare the money at JFK, after his domestic flight. However, once he was a ticketed passenger on a connecting flight out of JFK he established the intent to leave the country.

Moving on...what was his plan when he arrived in Albania? Smuggle the money into the country or maybe he would legally declare the money where he could be held by the Albanian government. Since 2005 had he ever sent money to relatives? If so why such the consternation? Why wouldn't he open a US bank account with a bank (like Charles Schwab) that has a relationship with the bank of Albania which minimizes transaction fees.

Lastly, not to start a whole different $hit storm, nobody on this forum has any idea what intelligence the government may have had on this man.

Again, I am not saying that he was or wasn't wronged. There are plenty of injustices in this world. I'm just saying leaping to conclusions by reading ONE point of view is dangerous. Unfortunately critical thinking has become a lost attribute in society. That is what is really chilling.

I can't help wondering, did you have trouble swallowing that great big government pill ?

[contrail]

Originally Posted by achil

Why not say he will do it when he gets to the 12 mile limit.

The point is if he lived close enough to the airport in Cleveland, he could have done it the day before and he would not be in the trouble he is in now. Leaving it to the last minute is not a good idea; his plane could be delayed for any number of reasons leaving him no time to get it done in Newark.

Personally, I doubt he ever intended to file that form. His interview with that rag was after he was coached by his attorney; you don't hear him saying he said that to the customs people at Cleveland!

I don't know how you or anybody can tell what a money launderer or a drug dealer looks like. I always thought they come in all shapes and sizes with no regard for nationality or education.

I don't know if he is guilty of anything or not, I just know that I am hearing one side of a story that he was coached by an attorney before giving his story.

Years ago I had a run-in with our IRS. They kept billing me for money I didn't owe and I kept writing them and sending them evidence proving I didn't owe them anything. The straw that broke the camels back was when they threatened to lien my property if they didn't get the money they were billing me for by a certain date. I took a day off work to go down to the local office and did get it cleared up. The guy there told me the problem was that the people that were sending me the bills were not in the office that was getting my mail with explanations and proof I didn't owe anything. None of the IRS guys were talking to each other and had I not gone to the local office there would have been liens filed against my property.

I am no lover of big government, but we do have huge drug problems in this country, and money laundering from a number illegal activities including white slavery. Those of us that are law abiding need to realize that the inconveniences we have to go through sometimes id necessary.

I just don't see where "he could have", translates into "he should have", much less "he had to". The law doesn't say "he could have gone to the neighborhood airport so he was wrong not to", it says he must declare when he departs. One cannot condemn someone for having followed the law, but not having taken an alternate action that makes sense to you. That's why we have laws!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by achil

Why not say he will do it when he gets to the 12 mile limit.

The point is if he lived close enough to the airport in Cleveland, he could have done it the day before and he would not be in the trouble he is in now. Leaving it to the last minute is not a good idea; his plane could be delayed for any number of reasons leaving him no time to get it done in Newark.. . .

You cannot do the declaration the day before. Nor can you do it when you are travelling around domestically. You are required to make this declaration AT THE TIME YOU LEAVE THE U.S. I can tell you've never done this before -- I have.

And anyway, once again -- the declaration is irrelevant in any case. He was not accused, of not declaring the cash. In fact, he was not accused of anything. He was simply sent away without his cash. He was never charged with any crime. CBP didn't even initiate a seizure procedure, and missed the deadline. They just grabbed his cash. Does that seem normal to you? Is making it easier to deal with drug traffickers more important than sanctity of your freedom or property? If so, I guess you would have liked living in the USSR. Sure, we have big problems with drugs. So why not just shoot suspected traffickers on sight?