Are these Actual 'Marine Standards and Practices' Requirements?

[Sailor647]

Hi all,
We recently had a survey completed in order to maintain our insurance. The insurance carrier is asking me to sign a form stating:

"I certify as owner of the above vessel that all NON-COSMETIC recommendations of the referenced survey have been complied with to Marine Standards and Practices."

These are the only requirements and recommendations made by the surveyor:

REQUIREMENTS - A
A.1- Should have type I life jackets if going more than 25 miles from shore
A.2- Should have up to date flares (difficult in Mexico)
A.3- Should have another CO / Smoke detector in second sleeping area

RECOMMENDATIONS – B
B.1- Should check the sail shackles to ensure they are safety wired, regularly (They are. And he did a rigging inspection.)
B.2- Should re-calk near the water fill deck fittings as the moisture meter showed high moisture in the deck (Impossible unless the meter is picking up fresh 5200, but that's another story.)

Question: Are A.1 and A.3 required for "Marine Standards and Practices?

A.1 - I know commercial vessels are required to have Type 1 Life Jackets, but pleasure boats and cruisers? I can't find any documentation on it.
A.2 - Taken care of.
A.3 - We have a CO2/Smoke Detector on the salon ceiling right next to the V-berth door and a Smoke Detector inside the aft cabin. Does this comply with Marine Standards and Practices?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.

[StuM]

It says "NON-COSMETIC recommendations"
i.e. "RECOMMENDATIONS - B"

There is no mention in that certification about compliance with "REQUIREMENTS - A", I'd just go ahead and certify what they ask for.

(I'd also say that "Marine Standards and Practices" are a "catch all" expression similar to the COLREGS Rule 2 "ordinary practice of seamen ")

[Benz]

Unless they can cough up the official "Marine Standards and Practices" publication they're referring to, it's simply something to say that looks official and intimidating.
By all means sign it, since they are certainly YOUR marine standards and practices.

[Manateeman]

You can get someone to send you an electronic flare and a day distress flag in the mail. You can carry electronic flares on aircraft. I still carry parachute flares and I sleep with an ACR strobe, a light and a whistle attached to me off soundings.
Ocean life jackets. Well it’s your real life insurance, not vessel insurance.
Carbon monoxide, smoke alarms. Why would you not have them.
I feel these are not the most difficult “standards” to meet.
I take the safety of our guests and crew very seriously and while we do not sail as a commercial vessel, I try to use USCG and SOLAS as a guide.
I’m lost on this post. What information do you want confirmed. Or are you looking for opinions. Just lost.
Mark

[C420sailor]

^Agree

I’d bet that the ins co thinks you’re going to do the ‘requirements’ and they’re also making the ‘recommendations’ mandatory for the policy.

Those requirements are common sense, 100% should be done.

You can pencil whip it, they won’t know...unless you have to make a claim. And you can bet dollars to donuts they’ll do everything in their power to avoid paying. I’m in the middle of an insurance company battle—you don’t want any part in this...i’d just ‘shut up and color’.

[Sailor647]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Ocean life jackets. Well it’s your real life insurance, not vessel insurance.
Carbon monoxide, smoke alarms. Why would you not have them.
I feel these are not the most difficult “standards” to meet.
I take the safety of our guests and crew very seriously and while we do not sail as a commercial vessel, I try to use USCG and SOLAS as a guide.
I’m lost on this post. What information do you want confirmed. Or are you looking for opinions. Just lost.
Mark

I'm looking for actual written safety standards pertaining to PFDs and CO2 detectors on private cruising boats.

1. Are we legally (USCG?) required to carry Type 1 PFDs for all persons on board? (We already have a 6 person life raft, 4 Type IIs, 4 Type IIIs, a throwable, a horseshoe, jacklines/tethers, an Epirb....)

https://www.boatus.org/life-jackets/types/ Is this accurate? Type I Not available for the general public?

2. Do we need a CO2/Smoke alarm in each cabin plus in the salon? So THREE for a 40' boat? Really?

Hope that makes it a little more clear. Sorry about the confusion.

[Zzmeyer]

They all seem reasonable to me and looks like you have done several. Flares are easy to get in Mexico. You can either comply, tell your insurance company to pound sand or falsely certify which will make you feel comfortable until you file a claim. The international insurance market has gotten incredibly tough. I washed the feet with my tears of my insurance carrier.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

I'm looking for actual written safety standards pertaining to PFDs and CO2 detectors on private cruising boats.

1. Are we legally (USCG?) required to carry Type 1 PFDs for all persons on board? (We already have a 6 person life raft, 4 Type IIs, 4 Type IIIs, a throwable, a horseshoe, jacklines/tethers, an Epirb....)

https://www.boatus.org/life-jackets/types/ Is this accurate? Type I Not available for the general public?

2. Do we need a CO2/Smoke alarm in each cabin plus in the salon? So THREE for a 40' boat? Really?

Hope that makes it a little more clear. Sorry about the confusion.

Your link -
Currently, there aren't any Coast Guard approved Type I inflatable PFD's available to the general public.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

https://www.boatus.org/life-jackets/types/ Is this accurate? Type I Not available for the general public?
.

You missed the word "inflatable"!

[Sailor647]

Originally Posted by StuM

You missed the word "inflatable"!

Ooops. Thanks. Got it.

[BillKny]

It doesn't matter a wit what you think, or if there are legal requirements for the things they are asking for or not. If the insurance company says, "These are requirements to be insured," you either DO them or you are not insured. This is not an argument you can win. None of the three requirements they are putting up for you are silly or out of line. Just do them.

The suggestion that you certify them as DONE without really DOING them is TERRIBLE advice. DO NOT LISTEN TO IT! If you have any kind of claim, and you have made ANY kind of misrepresentation of the state of the vessel your entire insurance will be void. It does not matter if the misrepresentation had anything to do with the claim. All your premium payments are wasted.

The entire marine insurance business is based on the insured (that's you!) implicitly guaranteeing to the underwriters that you will maintain the vessel in seaworthy condition, and that you tell them everything important that they need to know to make an accurate assessment of risk.

They have specifically told you what they require, based on the survey, for them to consider your vessel seaworthy. You either do as they ask or you are not covered. It doesn't matter if it is "hard" to do in Mexico, or if you disagree. Even if you are "right" in your disagreement, it doesn't matter. Suck it up and do it, find another insurance carrier, or self insure.

[requiem]

For A.3, per ABYC standard "A-24, Carbon Monoxide Detection Systems":

24.7.1 A carbon monoxide detection system shall be installed on all boats with an enclosed accommodation compartment(s).
24.7.2 Detectors shall be located to monitor the atmosphere in the main cabin and each sleeping area.

As to the lifejackets, I'm not sure what standard they might point to, perhaps the ISAF or similar offshore regs for racing. (IIRC those would call for 150 N of bouyancy and turning the wearer face up.) Since you'll find the type II or III PFDs (at least the non-inflatables) marketed for coastal or in-shore use as opposed to offshore use, they'd have a straightforward argument to consider them inadequate.

Also, what BillKny said. This isn't the place to get clever.

[Manateeman]

BillK is absolutely correct. All of the USCG requirements are online at their web pages and they have published a nice, easy to read mini book called a boaters guide to federal requirements for recreational boaters. These are minimum standards. Please take a look at passenger vessel requirements as some are excellent. Even these requirements fail to cover important areas such as fire fighting, basic medical, cold water, and my favorite, how to get back onboard.
My father was an attorney in Maritime for an insurance company.
Let’s say something bad happens and you are past the criminal part. Now it’s civil. Anything and everything you have ever posted on line, on social media, can be admitted in court. Every piece of safety equipment you have or do not have
will be viewed before a judge or jury. Every single one.
One side will do everything they can to make you look like you didn’t care about safety. Your attorney will point to all the ways in which you educated yourself, purchased the finest equipment available, sought to meet the highest safety standards. The decisions you make now about safety equipment and training might become the most costly or cost saving that you will ever .
How will a jury or a Coast Guard Hearing Officer evaluate your efforts to keep yourself, your vessel, your crew and your guests safe at sea? That’s up to you.
It simply is in your best interest because bad stuff does happen and “insurance” cannot protect you as well as you can protect yourself.
Happy trails to you
Captain Mark and his professional but sometimes goofy, manatee crew.

[Benz]

I say again, let them be specific in their demands: let them say which publication they want you to to comply with--there are many, for many different purposes.
Legally, if you're US flagged, you have to comply with the USCG requirements which are clearly published, whether you're insured or not. If the insurance company wants more than that, make them tell you specifically. Otherwise they have created a huge loophole with their vague "Marine Standards" that they will use to deny any claim they want. "Oh, you only had three COm detectors? Dang, we require a minimum of four...too bad for you."

[Zzmeyer]

I find some of the above amusing. Yeh, try and argue with the insurance company. They really need your business. As I read the certification, you must have the stuff. The only question is whether that stuff meets some standard. I guess you can ask them if the equipment you get meets their standard. A type 1 life jacket from Defender is $43 and the CO/smoke detector from Amazon is $25. I know it is the principle of the thing but an old German legal saying translates roughly "A principle is like a fart. Hold it as long as you can then let it go."