Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-08-2019, 23:41   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Currently in Hawaii
Boat: Cooper 416
Posts: 424
ABYC Standards on Older Boats

I have a question for surveyors or other knowledgeable professionals. Also links to back up answers would also be appreciated.

I have a 1981 Cooper 416. A recent survey noted a few items that did not meet current ABYC standards. For example, the AC panel did not have a dual pole circuit breaker. The OEM panel has a single breaker on the hot line and a reverse polarity indicator.

So...do I really have to update the OEM panel with a dual circuit breaker?

(Just as a footnote...I have had 2 surveys done by one surveyor (1 when I purchased the boat and 1 ten years later) and he did not indicate this and other things as a problem. A new surveyor performed a survey this year for insurance purposes and is saying things must change....of course he also says I need a MOB pole which is know is horse manure.)
__________________

__________________
-----------------------------------------------
S/V Discovery 15797 (https://www.QuestsOfDiscovery.com)
WA7WJR & XV9WJR
Discovery 15797 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 01:34   #2
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,304
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

No of course you have choices.

But if you want to keep getting insured by the company that insists on those "upgrades", the choices get more limited.
__________________

john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 03:45   #3
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 6,094
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discovery 15797 View Post
I have a question for surveyors or other knowledgeable professionals. Also links to back up answers would also be appreciated.



I have a 1981 Cooper 416. A recent survey noted a few items that did not meet current ABYC standards. For example, the AC panel did not have a dual pole circuit breaker. The OEM panel has a single breaker on the hot line and a reverse polarity indicator.



So...do I really have to update the OEM panel with a dual circuit breaker?



(Just as a footnote...I have had 2 surveys done by one surveyor (1 when I purchased the boat and 1 ten years later) and he did not indicate this and other things as a problem. A new surveyor performed a survey this year for insurance purposes and is saying things must change....of course he also says I need a MOB pole which is know is horse manure.)
You should discuss this with your insurance company. They may not require certain upgrades noted by their surveyor. But you need to get in writing the responses from the insurance company.

Frankly, installing a dual pole breaker is not that big of a deal I would think. And it is a good idea because of numerous examples of miswired marina hookups.
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 04:04   #4
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Whitby, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 4,128
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

Your surveyor is wrong.

ABYC requires EITHER a double pole circuit breaker OR a single pole with polarity indicator.
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 04:26   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 38,198
Images: 241
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Your surveyor is wrong.

ABYC requires EITHER a double pole circuit breaker OR a single pole with polarity indicator.
Indeed.
Per ABYC E-11:
Quote:
11.10.2.6.1 For boats wired with 120 volt, single-phase systems, branch circuit breakers shall simultaneously open both current-carrying conductors. Fuses shall not be used. (See E-11.17.1, DIAGRAM 1 and DIAGRAM 2.)
Quote:
EXCEPTION: Branch circuit breakers may open only the ungrounded current carrying conductor if the AC system on the boat is equipped with a polarity indicator, or transformer (See DIAGRAM 3 and DIAGRAM 6).”

Page 21 “E-11"http://www.blackfinforums.com/sites/.../abyc-e-11.pdf
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 07:08   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 40
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

I have had surveyors want to write up things that are "opinions" but presented as "requirements"; I've called BS on two or three of those items over the years. When the surveyor put together a draft survey result for my review prior to issuing the final survey, I pointed out things that were technically incorrect or I asked for the specific source language of the standard so I could intelligently disagree (or at least acknowledge he was correct).

When I've disagreed with a survey finding, I have had good results in asking the surveyor to change his language or to put in qualifiers such as "while not required by ABYC E-XX, the surveyor believes this should be upgraded to ..." Then at least I had some room to discuss with insurance when they asked for my plan on how I was going to address the major survey findings.

In your example, if you can get the surveyor to use the language "At the time of construction of this vessel, the electrical system met ABYC standards for [whatever]. However, those standards now require an AC panel with... While failure to make this modification to a vessel of this age is not a major shortfall by ABYC standards, this surveyor believes it is a reasonable safety improvement to upgrade the AC panel." Then you at least can make the argument to insurance that the upgrade is not required, but you will consider adding that upgrade if you make any future modifications to the electrical system. I've not yet had any insurance company say "No - make the upgrade now."
Pelican_38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 07:17   #7
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Whitby, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 4,128
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelican_38 View Post
I have had surveyors want to write up things that are "opinions" but presented as "requirements"; I've called BS on two or three of those items over the years. When the surveyor put together a draft survey result for my review prior to issuing the final survey, I pointed out things that were technically incorrect or I asked for the specific source language of the standard so I could intelligently disagree (or at least acknowledge he was correct).

When I've disagreed with a survey finding, I have had good results in asking the surveyor to change his language or to put in qualifiers such as "while not required by ABYC E-XX, the surveyor believes this should be upgraded to ..." Then at least I had some room to discuss with insurance when they asked for my plan on how I was going to address the major survey findings.

In your example, if you can get the surveyor to use the language "At the time of construction of this vessel, the electrical system met ABYC standards for [whatever]. However, those standards now require an AC panel with... While failure to make this modification to a vessel of this age is not a major shortfall by ABYC standards, this surveyor believes it is a reasonable safety improvement to upgrade the AC panel." Then you at least can make the argument to insurance that the upgrade is not required, but you will consider adding that upgrade if you make any future modifications to the electrical system. I've not yet had any insurance company say "No - make the upgrade now."
Read previous posts. The OP requires no upgrade. His electrical system is ABYC compliant as it sits.
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 08:18   #8
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,097
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Your surveyor is wrong.

ABYC requires EITHER a double pole circuit breaker OR a single pole with polarity indicator.
Actually that is not accurate in regards to a 120V equipped vessel.

I suspect what you are referring to is the section for branch circuit breakers. If the vessel does not have a reverse polarity indicator, even though it may have a double pole main breaker, then even the branch breakers need to be double pole/simultaneous trip. If there is a reverse polarity indicator the "exception" allows for branch breakers to then interrupt only AC black/hot.

For a 120V equipped boat this is the section that matters:

"11.10.2.8.2.1 120 volt AC, single phase - ungrounded and grounded conductors (white)"

The standard, in regards to AC Overcurrent Protection 11.10.2, is currently confusing, and out of order, and will get more clear in the next re-write.

Bottom line is that a 120V boat requires a main AC breaker that trips both AC Hot and AC Neutral. Technically the boat actually needs an ELCI main or Type A RCD breaker that is simultaneous trip for AC Hot and AC Neutral.

While the OP's boat is not required to meet any standard in the US, if the insurance company wants to see a double pole breaker, and he wants insurance, he will likely need to comply.

We've seen numerous cases of owners dropped by insurers in last ten years for failing to comply with insurance surveys.
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 08:23   #9
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,097
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Indeed.
Per ABYC E-11:

11.10.2.6.1 For boats wired with 120 volt, single-phase systems, branch circuit breakers shall simultaneously open both current-carrying conductors. Fuses shall not be used. (See E-11.17.1, DIAGRAM 1 and DIAGRAM 2.)

EXCEPTION: Branch circuit breakers may open only the ungrounded current carrying conductor if the AC system on the boat is equipped with a polarity indicator, or transformer (See DIAGRAM 3 and DIAGRAM 6).”
The red highlights are important details that can get lost in the mix..




.
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 08:51   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 2,944
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Your surveyor is wrong.

ABYC requires EITHER a double pole circuit breaker OR a single pole with polarity indicator.
That is for branch circuits. Without the light every single breaker needs to be double pole. The main always must be.

Current abyc requires an elci double pole main breaker. So your surveyer is behind the times with only a reg double pole

Weather you need to continue to meet new codes I have no idea. Certainly don’t in a house. Only when doing upgrades do you need to meet current code.
smac999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2019, 10:55   #11
Registered User
 
Dougtiff's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Rafael, Ca.
Boat: Gaff rigged Ketch[Spray]37' on deck
Posts: 424
Re: ABYC Standards on Older Boats

My experience with surveyor's, is they want to appear to have done a through job, so will come up with some B.S. notation in the survey [i do elect., plumbing, refrigeration, ect.] i have had them change the report many times, as it was there opinion, not ABYC regs.
__________________

Dougtiff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What does “ABYC” or “Meets ABYC Standards” on a product mean Joe Abbott Construction, Maintenance & Refit 2 11-09-2017 22:16
ABYC Standards on new boats EllisElectric Construction, Maintenance & Refit 65 07-12-2015 01:32
ABYC Standards toocool General Sailing Forum 7 10-12-2008 21:00
ABYC Standards (On-Line) GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 21-07-2008 01:47

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.