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Old 08-03-2021, 03:16   #1
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Worth changing the stern?

Hi from NZ.
We've just upgraded from our little trailer-sailer to a Cavalier 39, mainly so that we can let the grandkids enjoy some of the joys too. Am about to bring it home for a big maintenance session (busy preparing the cradle now and nearly bust a leg today when one of the beams slipped onto it...).
I dislike the "double-ended" stern and was wondering if anyone has had experience converting a similar GRP stern to a walk-through, sugar-scoop type of transom. The big negative, other than all the work, is that big back hatch that will get removed. The positives would include a rapid draining cockpit, easier access from the tender, easier to retrieve a MOB, it looks more modern, and it should increase the waterlength a bit.
Any help with actual experience or actual observation would be much appreciated.
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Old 08-03-2021, 04:32   #2
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

I’ve not been able to locate a photo of a cavalier 39 with a canoe “double ended” stern. Every one I’ve seen has a long overhang with a pinched flat transom.

Either way, cutting a scoop into this would be extravagant.
First, what’s inside? Steering quadrant?

Second, I don’t see how this would increase the waterline length unless you strapped a big square transom on several feet forward of the existing stern.

Third, accomplishing the second would alter the shape of the hull so much that the sailing performance when heeled may become undesirable.

Fourth. Rigging and structure. Does the deck support the hull here? Is the backstay attached here?
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Old 08-03-2021, 06:10   #3
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Jeremy,
The sailboatdata.com entry makes note of several variants.
Best if you post pics. Does your boat have wheel steering mid cockpit port side?

Below is supposed to be a Mk1.



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Old 08-03-2021, 06:25   #4
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

As others have noted, I think this is a very bad idea.
You might consider contacting Peter Smith, who will have a more expert opinion.

The Cavalier 39 designed by Bob Salthouse*, built by Cavalier Yachts** in New Zealand, and launched in the late 1970s.
Following the collapse of Cavalier Yachts, New Zealand, Jim Lawry formed Export Yachts Ltd in the early 1980s believing that export was the future for the company, and a number of Cavalier 39s were sent to Australia and the United States.

* Bob Salthouse, one of New Zealand’s most respected yacht designers, passed away peacefully in June of 2019, aged 83.
** Cavalier Yachts was a partnership between Bob Salthouse and Peter Smith [of ‘Rocna’ anchor fame]. Peter lives onboard his Cavalier 39, ‘Kiwi Roa’.
Contact Peter Smith https://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/contact.php
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:31   #5
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Here is where someone added a swim platform but their stern appears to be very different from yours.


https://youtu.be/7IloUDRx8os?t=626
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:43   #6
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
As others have noted, I think this is a very bad idea.
You might consider contacting Peter Smith, who will have a more expert opinion.https://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/contact.php
Peter mith lives aboard Kiwi Roa, a 51' aluminium boat. He hasn't had a Cavalier for decades.
https://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/peter.php

https://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/kiwiroa.php
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:46   #7
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

I have seen it done on other boats. None a canoe stern/double ender though. As noted a lot needs to be investigated for steering and structure below. Loss of the lazarette is not good either. It wont effect sailing as it's all above the water. Is it worth the cost and trouble? Probably not.
Devise a good swim/boarding ladder system instead.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:53   #8
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Not meaning to be harsh, but if you did not want a double ended 'canoe' than you should have kept looking.

The entire sailboat was designed to work in its current configuration. Everything about the boat would be affected (and not for the better) by such a radical change. You are not talking just replacing the transom, to do what you suggest would require rebuilding the entire stern. Think what an insurance company would do if a boat lost its stern. Do you think they would spend the money to build a new one?

I'd recommend keeping it the way it is. You may learn to like it, and if not you can sell it in a few years having learned more about what you like and don't like in a boat.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:12   #9
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Before you get out your chainsaw you should prepare detailed design drawings, and costings and schedule estimates. Multiply the schedule by ten then put the whole lot in a box in the attic and go sailing
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:13   #10
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Sailing Satori which is a Morgan 44 had tacked on a swim platform. Looks ugly, works fine (he's an engineer). A fold up swim platform may work for you. Changing the hull shape without some professional design input is probably a bad idea from a sail handling perspective.



12 minute video with 2 minutes of pertinent info. Skip ahead to about 6:24 on
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:20   #11
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I have seen it done on other boats. None a canoe stern/double ender though. As noted a lot needs to be investigated for steering and structure below. Loss of the lazarette is not good either. It wont effect sailing as it's all above the water. Is it worth the cost and trouble? Probably not.
Devise a good swim/boarding ladder system instead.
Good idea: Maybe look here:
https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thr...adders.538454/ or here:
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/swim...-stern.323832/
or here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-212025.html

It can be done. Around Mallorca the local boats have a very distinctive traditional style - they are double ender motor boats. i have seen swim platforms added - like this: https://uk.topboats.com/barcos-ocasi...re-cabinado-33

I definitely second the comment about making a swim ladder long enough - mine goes a good 4 foot underwater to make it easy for me to climb out. I know I would now find it very hard or impossible to use most of the swim ladders I see, which barely reach below the surface. It would be easy enough to adapt them - even a weighted rope ladder on the end could make enough of a difference.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:24   #12
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyFowler View Post
Hi from NZ.
We've just upgraded from our little trailer-sailer to a Cavalier 39, mainly so that we can let the grandkids enjoy some of the joys too. Am about to bring it home for a big maintenance session (busy preparing the cradle now and nearly bust a leg today when one of the beams slipped onto it...).
I dislike the "double-ended" stern and was wondering if anyone has had experience converting a similar GRP stern to a walk-through, sugar-scoop type of transom. The big negative, other than all the work, is that big back hatch that will get removed. The positives would include a rapid draining cockpit, easier access from the tender, easier to retrieve a MOB, it looks more modern, and it should increase the waterlength a bit.
Any help with actual experience or actual observation would be much appreciated.
Sounds like you're well on your way to creating a mess that you could never sell. If you want a sugar scoop just sell the Cavalier and get one - the money hit couldn't be near as bad as cutting the stern off the boat and constructing a new one. This sounds like big money to me and unless you're a naval architect may not even be structurally feasible. There's another Kiwi, Collin of Parley Revival who's reconstructing the port stern of a hurricane damaged boat in Florida. You may care to look at his video to get an idea of the complexity of this project even if it is a completely different style of boat.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:41   #13
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Jmo, don’t do it...

Fair winds,
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:51   #14
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

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Originally Posted by joelhemington View Post
Sounds like you're well on your way to creating a mess that you could never sell. If you want a sugar scoop just sell the Cavalier and get one - the money hit couldn't be near as bad as cutting the stern off the boat and constructing a new one. This sounds like big money to me and unless you're a naval architect may not even be structurally feasible. There's another Kiwi, Collin of Parley Revival who's reconstructing the port stern of a hurricane damaged boat in Florida. You may care to look at his video to get an idea of the complexity of this project even if it is a completely different style of boat.
If it's like this one https://www.sailboat-cruising.com/-k...-for-sale.html it looks like the rudder would be nightmare. I have an Aussie friend in Brisby that claims Kiwi's are notoriously cheap. I also have a Kiwi friend in Paparanga who says that all Aussies are sheep shaggers so I'm not sure who to believe
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:59   #15
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Re: Worth changing the stern?

Do not modify the hull your vessel will be worthless, sell this vessel and buy a vessel with the attributes you are looking for.
Double ended vessels are almost always heavy displacement “blue water” vessels, slow and stable. The canoe shape is ment to deflect waves approaching astern, Those who are attracted to them are looking for those attributes.

If you have the skill set to modify the stern think about adding davits and building a swim platform/ stairs that can be lowered in place?

One of the best attributes of the double ender is that it deflects stern boarding seas where as the super scoop vessels tend to be influenced by the same sea state in a way that at times can be difficult to keep a heading.
I have a twin helm “suger scoop”, the larger the seas the harder it is to control particularly when the waves are steep. If your rudder comes out of the water your vessel will turn broadside to the wave.
Work up some nice wood steps that contour the stern it will be much easier than working the toxic fiberglass process.

Cheers
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