Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-05-2024, 16:34   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

I'm a bit wary of Lithium ion batteries since I had an 18V tool battery on Helen about to burst into flames.

I was bewildered when I read that VW were building cars in China with Sodium ion batteries since I was aware they are heavier for a given charge than Lithium ion batteries. But Sodium ion batteries have a huge advantage in motor cars as they charge a lot faster than L ion.

There's a lot on google if you are interested in reading more but I suggest you limit the search to about one month as this is a rapidly developing technology. But here is a start:

google (you might have trouble using the link)

"Sodium-ion Battery VS Lithium ion battery(NMC material)"

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sodiu...rk=public_post
coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 17:01   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 3,078
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Remember, Lithium ion battery(NMC material) is NOT the same as Lithium Iron Phosphate. Maybe someday Sodium Ion will be used in boats. But it isn't on the horizon anytime soon. LFP is very safe, if that is your concern. The faster charge rate isn't a concern on boats. Or the operating temperature range. An LFP has a cycle life of 2000+ cycles.

There just isn't any advantage that I see over LFP in our application. And for us to use them they have to be packaged in appropriate batteries like the current LFP drop-ins are. Eventually that might happen, but not until other users demand it, RV, Stationary storage, etc.
__________________
-Warren
wholybee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 17:45   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

"used in boats. But it isn't on the horizon anytime soon. LFP is very safe, if that is your concern."

"From smartphones, tablets, scooters and electric cars to children's toys, portable chargers, robot vacuums and electric toothbrushes, lithium-ion batteries are powering an increasing number of personal items. Over the past year, they've caused more than 1000 fires around Australia".26 Apr 2024 (SMH)


Natron begins commercial-scale operations at sodium-ion battery plant in Michigan

01 May 2024





https://www.greencarcongress.com/202...01-natron.html
coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 17:53   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Everywhere USA
Boat: Hunter Cherubini 33
Posts: 58
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

According to that article capacity is lower and the weight higher. The marginal advantage of being a little safer to me doesn't outweigh the benefits of having a smaller, lighter battery bank. I understand sodium is cheaper and more readily available, but I think people will continue to choose LiPo Batteries even though they are more expensive and probably will continue to be.
ekelly36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 17:55   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 3,078
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

I repeat "Lithium ion battery(NMC material) is NOT the same as Lithium Iron Phosphate."

That list of things that have caused a thousand fires, NONE of them use Lithium Iron Phosphate. They ALL use NMC. This has been gone over so many hundreds of times on this forum, it's difficult that some people still don't know that. Bringing your cell phone on board is far more likely to cause a fire than using LFP for a house battery. Because the cell phone is NMC.
__________________
-Warren
wholybee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 18:13   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

I certainly don't claim to be expert but I wonder why the momentum seems to be swinging towards Sodium ion? Maybe because of this?

What are the disadvantages of LiFePO4?





"Limited energy density, higher cost, slower charging speed, lower discharge rate, and limited temperature range are some of the drawbacks of using LiFePO4 batteries".25 Sept 2023

https://www.solarchargingbattery.com...epo4-batteries
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2024-05-09 at 09-27-33 Sodium Ion Battery Vs Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery.png
Views:	75
Size:	126.4 KB
ID:	289665  
coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 18:33   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

I believe charging rate in a boat is important.
The cost of S ion is coming down.

coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 19:04   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wholybee View Post
Remember, Lithium ion battery(NMC material) is NOT the same as Lithium Iron Phosphate.

The fire I had on Helen was L ion as it was a 18V tool battery.



But they are developing sodium batteries to replace L ion telephone batterie, scooter batteries etc
coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 19:28   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 3,078
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

A high charge rate is going to be something at least 1C. Do you know ANY boat that can charge a 12V 400Ah (small compared to what many install now) at 400 Amps? Unless you are plugged into a 30A 24V shore power, charging at that rate just isn't possible. And LFP supports charge rates that high. That is why higher charge rates isn't important. Boats can not achieve high charge rates.

And again, "Lithium ion battery(NMC material) is NOT the same as Lithium Iron Phosphate". Your 18V tool battery WAS NOT Lithium Iron Phosphate!

I keep repeating that, because you keep linking to articles about Lithium Ion, which are not the same battery as used on a house battery bank. It isn't that Sodium Ion isn't a good tech. There just is no reason for them on a boat.

In a car, where people want to fully charge in 5 minutes, and where charging that fast causes a lot of heat, and where battery capacity is much greater, and where weight has a much greater impact on performance than it does on a boat, there is a real advantage there. On a boat, the difference won't be noticeable.
__________________
-Warren
wholybee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2024, 22:52   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wholybee View Post
A high charge rate is going to be something at least 1C. Do you know ANY boat that can charge a 12V 400Ah (small compared to what many install now) at 400 Amps? Unless you are plugged into a 30A 24V shore power, charging at that rate just isn't possible. And LFP supports charge rates that high. That is why higher charge rates isn't important. Boats can not achieve high charge rates.

And again, "Lithium ion battery(NMC material) is NOT the same as Lithium Iron Phosphate". Your 18V tool battery WAS NOT Lithium Iron Phosphate!

I keep repeating that, because you keep linking to articles about Lithium Ion, which are not the same battery as used on a house battery bank. It isn't that Sodium Ion isn't a good tech. There just is no reason for them on a boat.

In a car, where people want to fully charge in 5 minutes, and where charging that fast causes a lot of heat, and where battery capacity is much greater, and where weight has a much greater impact on performance than it does on a boat, there is a real advantage there. On a boat, the difference won't be noticeable.

A couple of points:

Lithium ion battery(NMC material) is NOT the same as Lithium Iron Phosphate". Your 18V tool battery WAS NOT Lithium Iron Phosphate!

The suggestions are that Sodium batteries will replace NMC ANDLithium Iron Phosphate batteries ie house, EVs, tools, phones, scooters.....

My alternator is 70A 24V and I don't think that is by any means a large output.
A fellow forumite said his battery bank was 1300AH, What sort of alternator did he have?

The fact is if they stop making Lithium batteries (NMC material and Lithium Iron Phosphate) we will have Buckley's chance of buying one - we won't have a choice will we?
coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2024, 00:07   #11
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,329
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
"used in boats. But it isn't on the horizon anytime soon. LFP is very safe, if that is your concern."

"From smartphones, tablets, scooters and electric cars to children's toys, portable chargers, robot vacuums and electric toothbrushes, lithium-ion batteries are powering an increasing number of personal items. Over the past year, they've caused more than 1000 fires around Australia".26 Apr 2024 (SMH)


THESE ARE LITHIUMION AND NOT LITHIUM IRON PHOSPHATE.



It's not the same thing. Lifepo4 = Lithium Iron Phosphate is a much safer technology.



Gadgets tend to use Lithium Ion as they are lighter for a given power capacity. Still they can go into an uncontrollable thermal runoff, which LiFePo4 don't do.

Hence the later ones are the type used on boats.




Natron begins commercial-scale operations at sodium-ion battery plant in Michigan

01 May 2024





https://www.greencarcongress.com/202...01-natron.html

Please see my comment inserted above.
Franziska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2024, 01:34   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Please see my comment inserted above.

My intuition tells me Lithium and Sodium won't exist side-by-side
Who know where battery technology will lead us?

Sodium-based batteries could make your smartphone cheaper and cleaner

5 June 2018 — "Today's cellphones use lithium batteries for power. Sodium could be a better option for batteries than lithium, according to researchers ..."

https://today.usc.edu/sodium-based-b...r-and-cleaner/


Maybe in the near future we won't use Lithium or Sodium batteries
coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2024, 02:00   #13
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,329
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
My intuition tells me Lithium and Sodium won't exist side-by-side
Who know where battery technology will lead us?

Sodium-based batteries could make your smartphone cheaper and cleaner

5 June 2018 — "Today's cellphones use lithium batteries for power. Sodium could be a better option for batteries than lithium, according to researchers ..."

https://today.usc.edu/sodium-based-b...r-and-cleaner/


Maybe in the near future we won't use Lithium or Sodium batteries

My comment was just about the reduced danger of LiFePo4 vs Li Ion. As wholybee has explained Sodium offers hardly any advantage for boat use, especially as we do not have the high charging sources available. They are currently also heavier than LiFePo4 for a given volume.


Sodium might be interesting for day cruisers and power boaters though as they are often going into ports...
Franziska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2024, 02:47   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,921
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
My comment was just about the reduced danger of LiFePo4 vs Li Ion. As wholybee has explained Sodium offers hardly any advantage for boat use, especially as we do not have the high charging sources available. They are currently also heavier than LiFePo4 for a given volume.


Sodium might be interesting for day cruisers and power boaters though as they are often going into ports...
I don't have a problem with what you say but I don't think the high charge rate will rule them out of marine use.

Maybe we should all have a look at this?


Hardware

7 New Battery Technologies to Watch

Could one of these new battery technologies be a viable alternative to lithium-ion batteries?

https://builtin.com/hardware/new-battery-technologies
coopec43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2024, 03:05   #15
Registered User

Join Date: May 2016
Location: Denmark
Boat: Nordship 808
Posts: 301
Re: Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
I certainly don't claim to be expert but I wonder why the momentum seems to be swinging towards Sodium ion?
Sodium ion batteries have zero momentum at this point.
It is completely irelevant for use in boats in the near future (3-5 years).
SaylorMade is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lithium ion house battery bank disappointment Journeyman Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 129 25-04-2018 15:21
Sodium bicarbonate in air intake manifold - cleanup? ScottMeilicke Engines and Propulsion Systems 10 28-06-2016 13:33
Lithium Ion Breakthrough - forgetful-scientists-accidentally-quadruple-lithium-ion-ba zboss Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 8 22-08-2015 23:35
Sodium Metabisulfide This Side Up Our Community 3 21-08-2014 12:46
Low-sodium diet SVTatia Cooking and Provisioning: Food & Drink 33 13-12-2012 01:29

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.