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11-12-2018, 20:28
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdege
Storer's advice is to apply epoxy to the panels, flat, before they've been stitched, except for 25mm along the edges, where the fillets and tape will later be placed.
Makes sense to me.
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What I said still applies though, it's better if you can put the glass tapes on over the fillets while they're still wet.
The reason is, when you're putting the fillets in, it's pretty much impossible to get them perfectly smooth. So they'd need to be sanded smooth before you could do the tapes.
If you do them wet on wet, you save that sanding. And if you peelply the tapes afterwards, there might be no sanding needed at all.
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11-12-2018, 21:00
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Vaitses/Herreshoff Meadow Lark 37'
Posts: 1,135
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
I'll certainly look at the book.
But I may not have been clear. Storer's design is epoxy-coated marine ply with fiberglass-reinforced seams. The areas that he recommends coating before assembly are epoxy-coated only, they aren't glassed.
(He does, though, discuss as an option, glassing the entire exterior with a single sheet, which is what I am leaning towards.)
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11-12-2018, 21:27
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdege
I'll certainly look at the book.
But I may not have been clear. Storer's design is epoxy-coated marine ply with fiberglass-reinforced seams. The areas that he recommends coating before assembly are epoxy-coated only, they aren't glassed.
(He does, though, discuss as an option, glassing the entire exterior with a single sheet, which is what I am leaning towards.)
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Are you actually getting real marine ply? If you get the real stuff, it's great but it's ungodly expensive. If you get something inferior, you need it sealed and sealed well.
The problem with just applying a coat of epoxy is the first scratch (or even just thermal expansion & contraction) and the barrier is broken and the wood underneath is subject to rot. By sheathing with a layer of cloth, it has a lot more abrasion resistance (minor dings won't go thru it and dragging up a sandy beach won't wear it away). Also it will force the wood and epoxy to expand and contract at the same rate.
Interior surfaces aren't as critical but you still have to watch out for breaks in the epoxy seal.
I will say, epoxying and sheathing the plywood when laid out flat is easier than reaching into an interior space to place epoxy and tape.
As mentioned, it makes a lot of sense to fillet and tape the joints in one go. It's really hard to sand a fillet smooth once it hardens. By doing the tape right away, it's all one monolithic piece with no need to go back.
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11-12-2018, 21:47
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Michigan, USA
Boat: Sabre 34 Mk 1
Posts: 93
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
The author of the epoxy basics book is Russell Brown. I have recently started building the PT11 kit that he and his wife, Ashlyn, sell. I've completed much of the flat-panel glass/fill/sand of the main panels and bulkheads. I start stitching this weekend. So far the direction in the manual seems to be spot-on for me. Russell has also recently started a video series on epoxy on OffCenterHarbor.com. At this point, though, only the first video (on filleting) is there.
However, also on OFH, is an entire, very detailed, video series on building a stitch & glue canoe, by Bill Thomas. You may find that helpful.
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11-12-2018, 22:03
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Vaitses/Herreshoff Meadow Lark 37'
Posts: 1,135
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
Are you actually getting real marine ply? If you get the real stuff, it's great but it's ungodly expensive. If you get something inferior, you need it sealed and sealed well.
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Yes. Real marine ply, BS 1088 okoume I bought from Chesapeake Light Craft. (They have flat-rate shipping for orders under 100 pounds.)
Abrasion is one of the reasons I've been leaning towards glassing the entire exterior.
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12-12-2018, 01:16
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: South Australia
Boat: Spacesailer
Posts: 61
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
I've mainly used Boat Cote over the last 20 years. Great stuff.I've had no allergic reactions ever AND there's no amine blush. It's also quite forgiving if you don't get tyhe mix spot on. I've been using Norglass epoxy lately because that's what Whitworth's of Port Adelaide carry.
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12-12-2018, 08:46
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: Herreshoff 28 modified ketch- wood
Posts: 379
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
I will never use West System products on wood again unless applied in perfect conditions, and will be unexposed to heat and sunlight and saltwater.
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12-12-2018, 10:32
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Vaitses/Herreshoff Meadow Lark 37'
Posts: 1,135
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailsout
I will never use West System products on wood again unless applied in perfect conditions, and will be unexposed to heat and sunlight and saltwater.
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I'd thought that all epoxy had poor UV protection. That you'd never expose unprotected epoxy to sunlight.
And that for epoxy to break down when exposed to sunlight is a failure of the protective vanish or paint, irrespective of what epoxy you're using.
Is there something about West Systems in particular I should be wary of?
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12-12-2018, 13:42
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#24
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,305
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
^^ It is the hardening agent in epoxies that is UV unstable. All epoxies should be UV protected.
FWIW, Bote Cote supplies various hardening agents, one of which is UV resistant. It is somewhat darker than the other hardeners and does not offer complete UV protection. However it is useful if you want to use it under an external varnish. I have used it on a tiller that was then overcoated with an external two pack poly varnish. It lasted significantly longer than using regular hardener.
I don't know if West make a similar product.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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13-12-2018, 08:24
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: Herreshoff 28 modified ketch- wood
Posts: 379
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
As already mentioned the toxicity and blushing. A must read I’d is Larry Pardey’s Appendix to his hull construction book. I used West’s 207 which was supposed to be a protective clear coat but it doesn’t penetrate the wood like Smith’s does and if there is any moisture in the wood the epoxy won’t adhere long and will begin to discolor and lift. The 205 as a glue in laminates did not last long on a laminated tiller. Parley also recommends best glues.
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13-12-2018, 08:46
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,103
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailsout
As already mentioned the toxicity and blushing. A must read I’d is Larry Pardey’s Appendix to his hull construction book. I used West’s 207 which was supposed to be a protective clear coat but it doesn’t penetrate the wood like Smith’s does and if there is any moisture in the wood the epoxy won’t adhere long and will begin to discolor and lift. The 205 as a glue in laminates did not last long on a laminated tiller. Parley also recommends best glues.
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Smith's is epoxy + MEK. It has a completely different use than gluing or encasing. It's a good pre-treatment for varnish and epoxy overcoating but you can't compare West 105 to West 105 + MEK, which is essentially all Smith's is.
West 207 has a bit of UV protection, but not much. It's main claim to fame is that it doesn't blush, but whether you use 205 or 207 hardener, the physical properties of the cured epoxy are nearly identical.
If you had delamination, it ain't the fault of the epoxy.....
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
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13-12-2018, 08:55
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,103
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdege
I'd thought that all epoxy had poor UV protection. That you'd never expose unprotected epoxy to sunlight.
And that for epoxy to break down when exposed to sunlight is a failure of the protective vanish or paint, irrespective of what epoxy you're using.
Is there something about West Systems in particular I should be wary of?
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If you take the time to look at the chemical makeup of any epoxy, you'll find they all use the same chemical components and produce pretty much the same finished product. Different hardeners are used for different applications - hot weather, cold weather, non-blushing, etc., and different manufacturers have different ratios they use for mixing, but beyond that, the resin is essentially the same chemistry regardless of product.
The only reason I could see to use Bote Cote is that you live in Australia and want to support the home team or it is cheaper.
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
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13-12-2018, 14:56
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#28
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,305
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin
If you take the time to look at the chemical makeup of any epoxy, you'll find they all use the same chemical components and produce pretty much the same finished product. Different hardeners are used for different applications - hot weather, cold weather, non-blushing, etc., and different manufacturers have different ratios they use for mixing, but beyond that, the resin is essentially the same chemistry regardless of product.
The only reason I could see to use Bote Cote is that you live in Australia and want to support the home team or it is cheaper.
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Or it smells nicer . Bote Cote does have a pleasant odour - maybe I've used too much of it
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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13-12-2018, 16:41
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,103
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
Or it smells nicer . Bote Cote does have a pleasant odour - maybe I've used too much of it
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That's as good a reason as any other. Chemically, they will be pretty much the same once cured.
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13-12-2018, 16:45
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,103
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Re: West Systems equivalent to Bote Cote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
^^ It is the hardening agent in epoxies that is UV unstable. All epoxies should be UV protected.
FWIW, Bote Cote supplies various hardening agents, one of which is UV resistant. It is somewhat darker than the other hardeners and does not offer complete UV protection. However it is useful if you want to use it under an external varnish. I have used it on a tiller that was then overcoated with an external two pack poly varnish. It lasted significantly longer than using regular hardener.
I don't know if West make a similar product.
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105 + 207 hardener would be their equivalent. One nice thing about West is the broad range of fillers they offer. These can be used with any epoxy, but the range and utility availabke aren't duplicated anywhere else that I am aware of.
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