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Old 23-11-2020, 15:15   #1
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Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

Attachment 227490I bought a 1975 Vagabond 14 this week to learn how to sail. The daggerboard and rudder came with the boat but are in very bad shape. They are warped and rotting. I got a piece of flat grained teak wide enough for making the replacements but have a few questions before starting construction of them. I have read on some forums where individuals suggested to cut the wood into 2-3 inch strips and re-glue them with alternating grain patterns so that any warping would be minimized. Other people say it's not necessary.



A friend of mine that has sailed for over 30 years also suggested that I make the front edge of the daggerboard angled so that if I do hit any rocks it will kick the daggerboard up instead of pushing it back into the slot and breaking the fiberglass (having to repair the front of the slot where that occurred at some time in the past). The old daggerboard is almost square, so I didn't know how that modification would affect the performance.



We are looking at keeping this boat for several years while learning how to sail, then getting a cruising boat, so I'm not concerned with the boards lasting for another 45 years, but would like them to be in good shape when I sell it obviously. Thanks for any input you all have.
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Old 26-11-2020, 08:28   #2
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

Looks like a fun boat. There is a family at my local lake that is often out in something similar.

I did a similar set of repairs to an old Sandpiper 25 some years ago.

We took the dagger board or rudder blade to an acquaintance who ran a funiture shop and he roughed it out of some elm (stringy wood, I would not use it again) in about 2 minutes by nailing the old one to the new board and chased the outline on a shaper with a pattern following bit. Back then I did not foil or fiberglass so it was just rounded and varnished. Now I would make both rudder and dagger more foiled like an airplane wing or surfboard fin and cover it with glass cloth and epoxy resin.

Does your dagger board pivot like the picture or is it up and down only?
Vagabond 14 crosses to several other makes (Holder, O'Day, etc) according to sailboatdata.com

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/holder-14


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Old 26-11-2020, 11:18   #3
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

It is a straight up and down daggerboard. i used to build guitars so I have a ton of woodworking stuff. I can't wait to get this on the water and start learning how to actually sail. Have watched tons of videos and read books, but no substitute for the real thing.
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Old 26-11-2020, 18:43   #4
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

Sounds like you should be fine with the woodworking. Here is the setup I made for my little boat, the design is from Jim Michalak's 'Catbox' PD Racer. The blade is foiled and the blade and the cheek are covered with fiberglass and epoxy. Tiller is stained and varnished.
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Old 26-11-2020, 18:50   #5
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

Thank you. I guess I'm going to just copy exactly the shape of the old boards, I am going to foil it as you mentioned. Thanks for the input. I truly appreciate it.
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Old 26-11-2020, 20:42   #6
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

Seems a shame to use a wide piece of teak for this. It COULD warp, which would be an expensive shame. Chapelle suggests making up wide foils and hatches by using smaller pieces with rings alternating direction, to minimize warping risks. Gluing two sheets of plywood together, shaping them, and then fiberglassing the two foils might be less expensive, less weight and less risky than using a single wood plank.
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Old 26-11-2020, 21:04   #7
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

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Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
Seems a shame to use a wide piece of teak for this. It COULD warp, which would be an expensive shame. Chapelle suggests making up wide foils and hatches by using smaller pieces with rings alternating direction, to minimize warping risks. Gluing two sheets of plywood together, shaping them, and then fiberglassing the two foils might be less expensive, less weight and less risky than using a single wood plank.

I already have the teak, it was expensive. I was planning on cutting it into strips and alternating the grain when I glued it back. If I keep the teak for something else, should I try to find marine plywood or just a good birch plywood if I'm gonna fiberglass it anyway. Also, I thought that weight would be a good thing for a daggerboard. I've heard about people casting lead into them to increase the weight. I don't know anything about this stuff lol, just learning as I go along. Thanks for the input.
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Old 26-11-2020, 22:54   #8
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

Nurse:

Your boat is almost identical to Jack Holt's Enterprise Dinghy of half a century ago. In fact, it appears to be a knock-off.

I built a couple of Enterprises for my Uni. sailing club way back then and used them for basic training of lubbers. They led a rough life living on trailers and being sailed off sandy beaches where grounding was not just inevitable but, in fact, part of the training :-)!

The boards and the rudders were made from plain old 3/4" plywood S2S ("S2S" is Canadian for "sanded two sides", i.e. sanded both sides). "Marine" plywood has no particular merit over ordinary "exterior" plywood for this application since the same waterproof formaldehyde glue is used in both. "Marine" plywood is s'posed to be free of interior voids, but so what? For a use such as this, if, when using ordinary plywood you run into a void, it's easy enuff to fill with goop, and the strength of the board or blade is not reduced in the least.

The blanks, when shaped, were foiled with a belt sander, and the boards and rudders then primed and painted with plain old marine enamel. Cheap, effective, and durable.

Using your teak in the manner you describe is WAY overkill for this job. Particularly in terms of money :-)!

All the best.

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Old 26-11-2020, 23:43   #9
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

Thank you very much, that is the kind of information that I was hoping to get. I'll do it this way and keep the teak for something else.
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Old 27-11-2020, 06:32   #10
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

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Thank you very much, that is the kind of information that I was hoping to get. I'll do it this way and keep the teak for something else.
The rudder on my 21' boat is painted plywood from before I bought the boat. It could stand to be refinished but is still serviceable. I made a new tiller as previous one was weathered and was three pieces screwed together. New one is oak, glued together, stained, varnished. One thing I did do special on the tiller was to drill-fill with epoxy, cure.-redrill the main pivot bolt holes so the the bolt is not riding directly on the wood but in a thin epoxy bushing. I did this to keep water out but it sort of makes sense mechanically too.

The only thing I would do different if glassing is to wrap the edges (leading, trailing, bottom tips) with their own layer of cloth maybe 2 or 3 inches wide centered on the edges before and/or after laminating the sides. If possible I would use a bias tape 4 or 6 oz so the fibers are 45 degrees to the edge instead of 90 degrees. I did not do this the first time and now have a few spots to mend.
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Old 28-11-2020, 01:28   #11
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

That's a great idea about bedding the bolt holes in epoxy. Thank you! I am also going to make my tiller from oak. What is the device on top of your tiller?
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Old 28-11-2020, 02:01   #12
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Re: Vagabond 14 making new rudder and daggerboard questions

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That's a great idea about bedding the bolt holes in epoxy. Thank you! I am also going to make my tiller from oak. What is the device on top of your tiller?

You are welcome.

I think it is some sort of cam to grab a line similar to these:
https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/tiller-locks-tested-23943



I have yet to rig it, but I did clean it up and mount it on the new one.


Some people are more DIY with these:
https://stingysailor.com/2016/03/19/...t-tiller-lock/

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