Timing Bottom Paint Application

[Cheechako]

Ixtlan22: I would go with a hard finish. You will be wanting to snorkel and clean your bottom at times, with ablative you will be rubbing off too much paint. The biggest problem in souther waters is when you stay in one place too long,the growth builds up terribly. After 5 weeks in one place it too me 3 hours to get all the growth off my anchor chain! I had to use a steel wire brush. By the time I had that clean I realized that the bottom and prop were probably just as bad, So I spent the afternoon cleaning the bottom in murky water. We ended up leaving a day late, but were glad we cleaned everything, we needed the speed later on... Pettit Trinidad is probably as good as any you can get in the states...

[zeehag]

what i have seen from users of petit trinidad sr in so cal --san diego waters--is positive--friends on a wood hulled ketch used it--painted 3 yrs ago--still have no problem with fouling that is not able to be sailed off the bottom of their boat---paint still great after 3 yrs without bottom diver----i like that---should be a good promo for the paint----

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by zeehag

what i have seen from users of petit trinidad sr in so cal --san diego waters--is positive--friends on a wood hulled ketch used it--painted 3 yrs ago--still have no problem with fouling that is not able to be sailed off the bottom of their boat---paint still great after 3 yrs without bottom diver----i like that---should be a good promo for the paint----

I love Trinidad as much as anybody, but 3 years without a cleaning? In San Diego?

Maybe you and your friend have a different definition of "clean" than the rest of us.

[zeehag]

was slightly slimy and looked good before the sailing ...sailing cleaned off the slime--i thought was a great deal for bottom paint--saving money and having ease of clean while underway----most folks rub off all their paint by having a diver clean to death the paint---i was most impressed and i didnt believe it either---was awesome--i will use this paint......

[edboat]

Coppercoat has been used for over 19 years, it is only new to the US market.

[Cheechako]

The water stays pretty cold in SD doesnt it?

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The water stays pretty cold in SD doesnt it?

in el nino summers can get to 70 degrees in the top 6 in of the bay....warmer where the current isnt so strong....winter is colder..in 58-60s area

[svcattales]

Central Florida is our home port and the summer water temps get close to 90F (its 88 right now). We previously used Petit Trinidad and it worked pretty well, but we like Interlux Micron Extra better.

The Micron Extra is an ablative and gradually wears off when the boat moves. We just passed our 3rd year since last bottom job and the bottom was in good shape until the water got warm this summer. (We are overdue now, but need to wait till fall for an insurance survey). The ablative will last a long time IF YOU DON'T SCRUB IT. After the first year I need to start removing slime and I use a plastic 6" scraper to do that. The scraper takes off the crud, but removes very little expensive paint. To get three years, I put on 3 full coats of paint and 4-5 coats on waterline and leading edge of rudders/keel. It was expensive to put on 3 coats, but adding a year to the haulout schedule saves lots of money. I have to dive on the boat periodically to change zincs and clean barnacles from props and saildrives, but that is manageable.

A big advantage of the ablative paint is the lack of build-up on the hull. Trinidad will get thicker and thicker until you need to sandblast or grind the hull to get it all off. It also adds extra weight. With the ablative paint, you get a pressure wash and some spot sanding and you are ready for another paint job. I usually use a different color paint for the first coat and then a green top coat. When the first coat starts to show through, I know I'm getting closer to the next haulout.

We may try Micron 66 this fall since we heard good things about it. Similar formula to Micron Extra.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by zeehag

in el nino summers can get to 70 degrees in the top 6 in of the bay....warmer where the current isnt so strong....winter is colder..in 58-60s area

San Diego has the highest fouling rate in California. Boats there are generally cleaned every three to four weeks, depending on the season. Which is why I find it a little difficult to believe that your friend's hull was anything close to being clean after 3 years without having been dived.

[s/v Jedi]

Fstbttms: you clearly have a professional interest in bottom cleaning, but that does not mean you can fool cruisers (as opposed to marina dwellers) who have been around for more than a year or so. If you have bottom paint that needs a diver to clean it up every 3-4 weeks than the paint is a joke. We have been in places that are much much worse than south California and our paint lasts 3 years with only occasional scraping the 3rd year (done by the cruisers themselves most of the time). All the cruisers we know or meet have this same experience, and most still use TBT paints that are NOT illegal everywhere. We buy ours in the USA and they are happy to sell it for export. I think that there's a ban on producing TBT for paint so it's all while supplies last.

May be you mean that cleaning the prop and other underwater metals are needed every 3-4 weeks. I agree with that.

About the hard Trinidad paint: we put a couple (2.5) coats of that on during a haul-out in FL. A month later we cruise the Bahama's and Turks & Caicos and life is good. Next we spend 2 weeks in Luperon, DR and the paint is shot. We got 3 months out of it. Not a good deal for some places in the Caribbean and that "less lethal but more legal" paint is still poison and I wonder if 12 times the amount of that isn't more poisenous than the TBT paints. But hey, it's about money remember... if it was about the environment I can think of some more effective measures.

cheers,
Nick.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Fstbttms: you clearly have a professional interest in bottom cleaning, but that does not mean you can fool cruisers (as opposed to marina dwellers) who have been around for more than a year or so. If you have bottom paint that needs a diver to clean it up every 3-4 weeks than the paint is a joke. We have been in places that are much much worse than south California and our paint lasts 3 years with only occasional scraping the 3rd year (done by the cruisers themselves most of the time). All the cruisers we know or meet have this same experience, and most still use TBT paints that are NOT illegal everywhere.

Nick,
I cannot speak to fouling rates or cleaning frequencies anywhere other than California, never having operated a hull cleaning business in any other location. But I can tell you a few things:

1.- I do not make a living by "fooling" anyone. Knowlegeable California boat owners understand the effect a foul hull has on performance under sail or power. And regular, frequent cleanings are absolutely necessary here in California. Further, frequent, gentle cleanings are better for the paint (and the environment) than are less frequent, more abrasive cleanings, regardless of what the bottom is painted with.

2.- Your insistance that any paint that requires frequent cleaning "is a joke" only points up your ignorance about the realities facing the anti fouling paint industry in the U.S. and the steps the federal government is taking to reduce copper in the the nation's waterways. Steps that have already been taken regarding TBT.

3.- You and your friends may indeed only require occassional cleanings. But that is because you are using an anti fouling product that is so detrimental to marine life that it has, in fact, been banned worldwide, beginning this year. Now that you know that fact, continuing to use it (regardless of which Third World countries continue to allow you to buy it) would make you a very poor steward of the environment.

The reality is that boats in coastal California waters that are painted with copper-based paints require periodic hull cleanings. That's not a scam, that's not some kind of rip-off, that's just the nature of the beast. And that is not likely to change as we transition to non-toxic anti fouling alternatives, which is what we are beginning to see happen here.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

About the hard Trinidad paint: we put a couple (2.5) coats of that on during a haul-out in FL. A month later we cruise the Bahama's and Turks & Caicos and life is good. Next we spend 2 weeks in Luperon, DR and the paint is shot. We got 3 months out of it. Not a good deal for some places in the Caribbean and that "less lethal but more legal" paint is still poison and I wonder if 12 times the amount of that isn't more poisenous than the TBT paints.

Petit Trinidad is an excellent anti fouling paint. But what you have discovered (but perhaps do not comprehend) is that an anti fouling paint that works well in one region is not neccessarily effective in another. Fouling conditions and the organisms that take advantage of those conditions are not the same in Florida as they are in the Dominican Republic. So it is less likely that the paint is at fault, but rather that you simply took the boat to a region the paint was unsuitable for. But it seems unlikely that a 3-month old Trinidad bottom was "shot" regardless of where the boat lay. Maybe all it really needed was more frequent bottom cleaning than you wanted (or were willing) to provide.

[s/v Jedi]

fstbttms,

I am not going to enter in an endless flaming discussion with you, so I just want to say this:

Pettit Trinidad is NOT formulated for CA; it's formulated for the Caribbean... that's why it's called Trinidad. They claim it is the strongest anti-fouling in the world, for extreme fouling conditions. They also claim one year service WITHOUT bottom cleaning. Pettit Marine Paints - Browse Catalog

anti-fouling means it is supposed to prevent fouling; not to make it easier to clean the bottom every 3-4 weeks. You really think ships in the tropics are cleaned every 3-4 weeks?

Also, we were in Luperon for two weeks and the hull was clean when we went in. Before that, we sailed from Miami (where 2.5 coats of the paint was applied) to Luperon which is not much of a factor for hard paint. In those 2 weeks, we accumulated a 1" coat of barnacles and mussels and after scraping that off, most of the paint was gone and primer visible in spots. The paint was shot. The bottom was cleaned every 3-4 weeks after that for more than 2 years. You don't need any anti-fouling when you clean every 3-4 weeks. You would be much better off with a good hard teflon paint.
Also, there are much worse anchorages than Luperon. Cartagena is at the top of our list.

And last but not least: you make it appeaer you are very worried about the environment. This means you should NOT be happy with Trinidad as it has the highest amount of copper in it off all the paints worldwide. Also, you should not clean boats in the water, only when hauled and all the polluting chemicals are contained and collected as required by US law. You should persuade your customers to use that Teflon paint instead.

With that world wide ban of TBT paint, I assume that the US doesn't allow it's industry to produce and export it anymore?? It's not "those 3rd world countries" that allow us to buy it, because we buy it in the US of A. Still, today, see Sea Hawk Premium Antifoulants & Primers : Islands 44 Antifouling Paint so call your governer to complain about that instead of pointing fingers to 3rd world countries. The USA wants to be the good example for the world to follow... so be the good example.
I found a better link: Sea Hawk Premium Antifoulants & Primers : Antifouling Paints For Export Only which even shows the pure TBT is still sold as "tin booster".

Anyone knowledgable should calculate what is more polluting: the small amount of TBT based paint that allows a boat so sail in tropical waters for 3 years or the (at least) 3 times that much amount of copper based paint like Trinidad (75% copper). We would need a "poison-factor" for each type of paint to calculate that. I honestly believe we do better than yearly repainting with copper based. These paints are supposed to be lethal to marine growth and believe me, barnacles aren't in danger of extinction and the reefs don't die because of TBT paint (too high water temperature and other sea creatures are the main reasons if I'm correct.)

We plan to use Micron 66 when we leave the tropics because we care about the environment and will use the paint that does the job with as little poison as possible.

cheers,
Nick.

[Amgine]

I'd like to take a brief moment to re-iterate: TBT is not banned world wide.

According to this document TBT is recommended to be added to Annex III of the Rotterdam Conventions (wikipedia) by (deep breath for *this* title...) the Rotterdam Convention on the Prior Informed Consent Procedure for Certain Hazardous Chemicals and Pesticides in International Trade Chemical Review Committee. However, it has not yet been added, so it is not under a world-wide ban.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Amgine

I'd like to take a brief moment to re-iterate: TBT is not banned world wide.

You're wrong. The ban exists- whether or not every country abides by it is another matter. The fact that Jedi continues to be able to obtain this nasty poison is proof of that. Here's a link to a story about the ban:

Global ban on tributyltin enters into force - News