The Yard Guys

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

When you say things like "obviously" - it makes me think you didn't really read the report.

No seriously, you dont read it, i read it 2 times ... but anyway the Obviously post as nothing to do with the report.. Obviously

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Well ok ok, just post the part concerning keels structures, scantlings .. 72 pages is to much, you right!

Ok, just the part for the calculation for the floors, but I don't think you understand rat language:

[neilpride]

Okey Paulo, no, i dont understand rat language, you bring this point here, end it.
I refer to this.


Well they are, since 2012:

ISO 12215-9:2012 - Small craft -- Hull construction and scantlings -- Part 9: Sailing craft appendages

It means that new boats have to be modified to comply with the new more demanding rules, as it emerged from the validation process. They did not want to but were forced to. Boats will have to be more reinforced on that specific area.

Where in the ISO 12215-9:2012 say what you say in your previous post..
This part.

:means that new boats have to be modified to comply with the new more demanding rules, as it emerged from the validation process. They did not want to but were forced to. Boats will have to be more reinforced on that specific área

Thats all, reinforced on that specific área, so they know there is a problem ,and the builders dont want to comply with the new regulation, WTF!! or im wrong, i take your words ... can you enlight us please Paulo...

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Polux

Ok, just the part for the calculation for the floors, but I don't think you understand rat language:

I LOVE that song!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

...

It means that new boats have to be modified to comply with the new more demanding rules, as it emerged from the validation process. They did not want to but were forced to. Boats will have to be more reinforced on that specific area.

Where in the ISO 12215-9:2012 say what you say in your previous post..
This part.

:means that new boats have to be modified to comply with the new more demanding rules, as it emerged from the validation process. They did not want to but were forced to. Boats will have to be more reinforced on that specific área

Thats all, reinforced on that specific área, so they know there is a problem ,and the builders dont want to comply with the new regulation, WTF!! or im wrong, i take your words ... can you enlight us please Paulo...

It seems you did not understood:



The Iso-12215 is under development since the 90's it have been revised and improved. You asked what regulated the appendices. I gave you a link for part 8, rudders, that is already regulated. The part regarding specifically keels was in DIS status, passed in 2009 to FDIS status and was approved in 2012. The text that explains this clearly on the image above is from the document you posted where all this was explained. I thought that you had read it.

The document existed (Part 9), was being perfected and served only as a guidance before being approved and passed to law. Now all the new designs have to comply with it. Before some complied (and exceeded) others not in some points.

This does not mean that the boats had a specific problem on that area but that the regulation was not specific on that area and that if the generic scantlings were followed a NA had more freedom in what regards keel design.

What I said regarding boats having to be improved was on the document you posted: on many areas the boats presented were clearly above the minimums of the draft, on others were slightly below. It is all there on the final tables. I said that they did not want to be regulated and wanted things to remain as they were, only a document for guidance (it is on the document you posted). Now it is not only for guidance and in some areas some boats will have to be built stronger then they were (it is also on that document), others not.

That does not mean that the boats had a problem (if they had keels would be falling with some regularity among the many tens of thousands of boats built recently) but that they decided to increase the safety margins.

It almost looks like that you don't think that is a good thing

[carstenb]

I stole this from another thread that just opened up (thank you Georgec!)

Here is a clip from A Sail Magazine Article. I guess no one told these owners to beware that their rudders and keels are going to fall off!


Have you ever wondered what brands and models are the most popular bluewater cruising boats? So have we, so we plundered the archives of the World Cruising Club to see which boats have featured most prominently in the last five years of the rallies that the WCC organizes—the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers (ARC) from the Canary Islands to St Lucia; the Caribbean 1500 from Portsmouth, Virginia to Tortola, BVI; the ARC Europe, from Tortola and Portsmouth to Portugal via Bermuda and the Azores; and the World ARC, a biennial circumnavigation.

We weren’t surprised to find that mass production boats, once looked down upon by “serious” voyagers, now make up the bulk of the rally fleets. No longer, it seems, does the aspiring bluewater cruiser seek out slow, heavy-displacement boats with tiny cockpits and conservative rigs. As the mass-market builders produced ever-bigger models over the last 20 years, and evolving technology improved their engineering and durability, so owners began using these boats for ever-longer passages.
What’s Popular?
> Most popular brands in the ARC, 2008-2012 (in order):
Beneteau, Jeanneau, Swan, Oyster, Bavaria,
Hallberg-Rassy, Lagoon, Hanse, X-Yachts

> Most popular brands in the Caribbean 1500, 2008-2012:
Jeanneau, Hallberg-Rassy, Hylas, Tayana, Beneteau,
Island Packet, J/Boats, Amel, Lagoon, Catalina


Armchair admirals and chat-room bores may warn dolorously of lightweight structures failing in big seas and rigs crumpling at the merest hint of a hurricane, but given good preparation and a capable crew, the typical production boat is quite capable of surviving some very nasty conditions. For the trade wind passages that make up the bulk of bluewater cruising, there should be no argument about whether a suitably prepared production boat will make it across an ocean. For sailors who can’t afford or justify one of the high-ticket deluxe cruising boats, it’s good to know there are plenty of good options among the ranks of moderately priced production cruisers.

[smackdaddy]

Bingo.

Actually, it looks like the BWC are posting their dire warnings from the Carib while the production boats are zipping back and forth across the oceans.

[smackdaddy]

Jeez - this Oyster 62 seems to be falling apart! Repairs on the keel, hull, bow thruster, you name it!

Sail In Port Services :: Gallery

[neilpride]

I promise myself not fed the trolls, nvm, i just see a nice Oyster with a recent painting job in the bottom? btw, waiting for Minaret Jeaneau Pics, can nail to death this topic finally....Peace.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Jeez - this Oyster 62 seems to be falling apart! Repairs on the keel, hull, bow thruster, you name it!

Sail In Port Services :: Gallery


And a bunch of other pics...

Smackdaddy, have you ever had your boat out of the water to get a bottom job done? If so, were you there to see what it looked like after prep?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by avb3

Smackdaddy, have you ever had your boat out of the water to get a bottom job done? If so, were you there to see what it looked like after prep?

Hey dude, they are the ones calling these "repairs" (look at the photo captions on their site). They are yard guys after all.

Don't shoot the "messenger" here fellas (or "troll" or "poser" or whatever the name of the day is). You might want to take it up with those other yard guys.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Hey dude, they are the ones calling these "repairs" (look at the photo captions on their site). They are yard guys after all.

Don't shoot the "messenger" here fellas (or "troll" or "poser" or whatever the name of the day is). You might want to take it up with those other yard guys.

The question was, have you seen your boat when a bottom job was done (or maybe you have never had a bottom job done).

What did the prep look like (if you ever had one done)?

Were you there when it was done?

Your propensity for hyperbole stretches the credulity line. Most people (who have seen bottom jobs prepared) would comment about the fact care was taken to prep it properly.

As opposed to your comments as if to indicate that there was a major issue of some sort by innuendo. Dude, not kosher. Call the real things, don't do it in the manner that conspiracy theorists do, innuendo and bravado. Unless, of course, that is the image you feel important to enhance.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Hey dude, they are the ones calling these "repairs" (look at the photo captions on their site). They are yard guys after all.

Don't shoot the "messenger" here fellas (or "troll" or "poser" or whatever the name of the day is). You might want to take it up with those other yard guys.

I went to that site and the word that struck me was 'valeting'.

Can't wait to drop that into the pre-dinner drinkees conversation....


"Oh yes my yorts away being valeted dontcherknow'.......


Honestly all I see in those pics is a paint job being prepped but one must ask why extra attention is needed around the skin fittings and metal bits... overzinked maybe... well I zink so anyway..

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Hey dude, they are the ones calling these "repairs" (look at the photo captions on their site). They are yard guys after all.

Don't shoot the "messenger" here fellas (or "troll" or "poser" or whatever the name of the day is). You might want to take it up with those other yard guys.

The photo captions say keel/hull/rudder "repair & maintenance" on an Oyster so Smack got all excited. Probably been Googling for days to find that one. At the very most it just looks like some pretty standard fill & fairing work prior to sanding for bottom paint, or maybe not even that. Just like another caption that says "propeller maintenance" and the photo shows a shiny prop that's been buffed. I can't wait to tell a noob never to buy a boat that requires this sort of "extensive" maintenance.

But this is supposed to demonstrate that one of the highest quality boats in the world is no different from Smack's Hunter -- or maybe Hunter's & other production boats don't require bottom jobs -- or something like that. Gettin' old, ain't it.

[Polux]

Regarding crossing Oceans a well built boat is very important but also stability, as it is proved by that IP38 rolled several times and this recent case of an aluminium passage maker that was rolled and sunk. In what regards stability, price for price and in what regards new boats mass market main boats offer a lot more compared with the so called "bluewater brands" that in Europe are called luxury boats (nothing wrong in luxury, I love it)
Tao : sauvetage réussi en plein Atlantique