The Yard Guys

[neilpride]

I post that pictures from SN, im not any negrini , and i dont know the OP who post the original pictures ...and not, i dont work in that boat, seems to me the owner fix the isue with some epoxy around the tube, no?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I'm not brushing anything under the table. I'm here talking about it and presenting "facts" (previous posts, etc.) aren't I? That's hardly squelching an issue.

But nor am I ready to get behind a freakin' recall on the basis of a few forum posts. Neil himself says he doesn't really know what caused that failure of the Bene's bulkhead bond in his photos - and he was the one that was there digging through it all.

Then the Blue Pearl blog post fails to mention what they talked about here on CF - a rock strike with the rudder! They posted that in June. And in all that time, there has been one single comment on the Cyclades.

So, the "facts" are murky at best.

Now, does this mean there is no problem? Of course not. There very well could be. And if indeed there was a technical advice bulletin to Moorings as Andy E. said, that would certainly be helpful in showing that there was an issue with this particular model of boats. And, it would therefore suggest that any other boat with similar build would come into question.

But to go from there to an NTSB investigation and NHTSA recall is hysterical. Period. Almost as hysterical as taking this smal sample of failures and saying all standard production boats are inferior and dangerous. But, of course, that hasn't stopped anyone.

So keep at it. I enjoy the show.

I wasn't suggesting an NTSB investigation or recall, however, also we, as sailors need to be aware of issues that are out there. We all learn from these posts, and just because they are on a forum, does not make incidents less valid.

You refer to small sample size of failures, yet let's not forget, the people showing these are also only a small sample size of the professionals who deal with these issues. As example, the boat yard doing my bottom job right now is not on this, or any other forums. What unreported issues are yards like him seeing?

If I buy another boat, I would be very wary of one built using a hull liner, for many of the reasons outlined here. More so, my concern would be that a surveyor could not properly assess the condition of that boat. To me that is a positive learning experience. Unfortunately, that eliminates a lot of boats from contention, which may be perfectly great boats with no issues. But if it can't be seen, how can it be checked? I need that degree of assurance. Others may not, and many boats with liners sell, and perform just fine.

Mind you, I also prefer a boat to have an all lead keel, and that preference also eliminates a lot of boats. It comes down to choices and what one is comfortable with. Safety and potential problems are issues I don't want to compromise with.

But then, that is my choice. Yours may differ for the same legitimate reasons that make sense to you.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I post that pictures from SN, im not any negrini , and i dont know the OP who post the original pictures ...and not, i dont work in that boat, seems to me the owner fix the isue with some epoxy around the tube, no?

Okay. It was just pretty confusing when you said they weren't your photos but that you had photos of the same problem, etc....

Originally Posted by neilpride

Well same kind of boat Oceanis series with diferent folks, same rudder ikea post config but this time !! Surprise!! they forgot to shoot the plexus at the Factory!! nothing around the bearing collar, air, zero, nothing!! no plexus.. Glad this guys cacht this isue in time,,,,

Originally Posted by neilpride

Is not me who take the last pictures, btw if you scroll down to page i think 13 you can wacht my pics, this last ones are about a rudder tube with no plexus or fiberglass around the tube to hold the tube to the plywood top part, i have the link with the whole description but im sorry i think i have enough with this discussion and i dont want to continue with the same thing over and over, even Beneteau admit in this case its a isolated case , ok, thats fine.

Cheers.

Where exactly are your photos?

[neilpride]

Smack, boy, seriously!!! WTF!!!!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by avb3

I wasn't suggesting an NTSB investigation or recall, however, also we, as sailors need to be aware of issues that are out there. We all learn from these posts, and just because they are on a forum, does not make incidents less valid.

You refer to small sample size of failures, yet let's not forget, the people showing these are also only a small sample size of the professionals who deal with these issues. As example, the boat yard doing my bottom job right now is not on this, or any other forums. What unreported issues are yards like him seeing?

Awareness is one thing. Over-generalizations and fear-mongering are another.

I don't trust any "conclusions" drawn by a guy who's seen a couple of problems. I DO trust conclusions by lots of different guys who've seen the same problem in the same boats.

BTW - you apparently need to take the new Island Packets off your list.

[neilpride]

Well , then you can post in other sailing fórums , related fórums the same question, rudder failures , and see what the pros say about the ruder isues, this topic like the ruder failures plexus nightmare its toasted to the extreme!!!!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Smack, boy, seriously!!! WTF!!!!

Neil - my apologies. I don't mean you in particular. I just need more evidence than what I've seen thus far to think that there are widespread, dangerous problems with Beneteaus.

If there are other yard guys out there that have direct evidence - or the service bulletin - that would be great.

[neilpride]

Nahh, no need to apologize, good idea to open a topic in SN , maybe some pros have something to say, SA or others, look , no one is sayig you are going to die in a beneteau tomorrow, fact is there is hundreds sailing here and there, fact is there is previous problems in some models, Minaret hit the nail in a previous post, there is just a small % of rudder , keel isues in the net, most problems are fix it in time before a disaster happen, and a huge % of cruisers dont report nothing in the net, so you cant get the whole picture in the net.. Ciao..

[avb3]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Awareness is one thing. Over-generalizations and fear-mongering are another.

I don't trust any "conclusions" drawn by a guy who's seen a couple of problems. I DO trust conclusions by lots of different guys who've seen the same problem in the same boats.

Nor should one ignore those observations. Right?

BTW - you apparently need to take the new Island Packets off your list.

Reviews suggest the liners used by IP ensure that there is significant access to areas the liner covers. However, I would like to hear from those that deal with IP to elaborate.

[Jim Cate]

As usual, FWIW, and just to get away from this discussion a bit:

I took the attached photos of the bow of a Bene Oceanus 47 that had had a collision with a steel trawler. Anything other than another steel boat would likely have suffered some damage from such an incident, but this did reveal how thin and flimsy the layup in this specific boat was. The failure of the bow structure brought down the rig as well... something that might not have happened if the bow, even though FRP, was more robustly built. I'm not learned enough to draw useful conclusions from this incident, but perhaps some of you are.

Oh... the venue was the marina yard at Yamba, NSW, and the boat was eventually repaired (at great expense) by grafting on a new bow moulding shipped in from France. I do not know if insurance was involved. The folks who repaired her were quite vocal about the poor construction, layup and schedule of construction in the whole boat.

Jim

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

As usual, FWIW, and just to get away from this discussion a bit:

I took the attached photos of the bow of a Bene Oceanus 47 that had had a collision with a steel trawler. Anything other than another steel boat would likely have suffered some damage from such an incident, but this did reveal how thin and flimsy the layup in this specific boat was. The failure of the bow structure brought down the rig as well... something that might not have happened if the bow, even though FRP, was more robustly built. I'm not learned enough to draw useful conclusions from this incident, but perhaps some of you are.

Oh... the venue was the marina yard at Yamba, NSW, and the boat was eventually repaired (at great expense) by grafting on a new bow moulding shipped in from France. I do not know if insurance was involved. The folks who repaired her were quite vocal about the poor construction, layup and schedule of construction in the whole boat.

Jim

Which brand of boat did the yard guys recommend for hitting steel trawlers?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Which brand of boat did the yard guys recommend for hitting steel trawlers?

Why Smack, they recommended Hunters for sure! They reckoned that any Hunter would immediately sink and help reduce maritime clutter.

You are a hard person to please, mate. You keep seeking objective data, and then rejecting it. These yard guys expressed an opinion based on examination of this boat in this condition, following a specific incident. I thought that was what you were looking for. The pix, while not exhaustive, surely show some failed, thin layup. Would some other boat have fared better? They thought so, I dunno but also suspect so.

You are entitled to your opinion as well, and we can sorta guess what that will be.

Jim

[noelex 77]

Looking at boats that have been damaged is always interesting.

I am a fan of aluminium construction so I'm a bit biased, but the bow does look flimsy to my eyes.

This is the interior framework of a Garcia. This is a production boat of a similar size.

[neilpride]

Those Garcias are tough boats,but to be honest in a collision they are chewed anyway,
and i prefer fix a FRP hull than a alu one , having worked this summer in a aluminium hull, they seems to me good candidates for my next boat , im dreaming haha,,,

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Why Smack, they recommended Hunters for sure! They reckoned that any Hunter would immediately sink and help reduce maritime clutter.

You are a hard person to please, mate. You keep seeking objective data, and then rejecting it. These yard guys expressed an opinion based on examination of this boat in this condition, following a specific incident. I thought that was what you were looking for. The pix, while not exhaustive, surely show some failed, thin layup. Would some other boat have fared better? They thought so, I dunno but also suspect so.

You are entitled to your opinion as well, and we can sorta guess what that will be.

Jim

I'm not really that hard to please. I'm just looking for examples that have at least some scant amount relevance.

Specifically, I'm looking for evidence of production boats that had serious structural issues from "normal use" - you know, like sailing through an F10 in the North Sea or sailing across the Pacific.

T-boning steel trawlers has never been part of the design/build spec for any sailboat that I know of - production or "bluewater" - so saying that the build was a bit a bit light for this use is beyond ridiculous.

For example, the layup is "thin and flimsy"...for what? Cruising the oceans or hitting steel trawlers? It's only "thin and flimsy" if it fails while cruising the oceans. So, far I've not seen ANY reports of hulls failing like this while cruising the oceans.

So, my point is, your example is interesting. But for showing any actual deficiencies with Beneteaus in particular or production boats at large...

Fail.