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Old 26-03-2017, 06:04   #1
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The new era on chainplates..

I just read some news the other day regarding CF chainplates in the SA fórum.. Looks promising , i see this concept in few megayachts , larges swans and in some Wally´s.. Looks like future buyers maybe can get rid of those pesky SS plates for god shake....

http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&...50729734,d.ZGg
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Old 26-03-2017, 06:33   #2
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

Interesting link, thanks. Do you happen to have the one to the thread over on SA?
My concerns about composite chainplates have always been:
- How do we inspect it/know it's not damaged, or not damaged enough to worry about? Since at present I'm not up to speed on NDI/NDT for such structures, though I surely would like to be. Anyone got some tips?
- How do such chainplates get replaced if they're damaged enough to warrant such? Particularly without needing to pretty much unbuild, & then rebuild the boat around them. Which would make some collisions & accidents with boats that currently are minor or moderate, into catestrophic ones. Even to the point of having to throw away otherwise repairable boats. Or, at that point do we switch the damaged boat back to having standard (metal) chainplates?
Which is probably the cheaper option. Something insurers would love, even at the "cost" of devaluing the boat in question. And or pushing for boats with "minor" damge to be switched over to metal chainplates, when in reality she could be repaired to like new status.

Then there's the old school question. How do we fix such things in distant, low tech ports? Where the needed materials are difficult at best to come by. Ditto on craftsmen who can make the repairs properly. As for a lot of boats it's doubtful that the insurer will pay to fly in a high tech repair team, complete with tools, & appropriate supplies. Such as is done for round the world racers.

And when underway, we'll have to come up with new techniques for keeping a boat viable enough to sail home. Since unlike Steinlager II in the Whitbread Race, it's doubtful that the crew could slice up an engine bed, & fabricate a new chainplate from it. Something which allowed Steinlager II to continue on under sail, when the old chainplate on the mizzen failed, & she sailed on to victory. From somewhere down off the cost of S. America (to Europe, non-stop) if memory serves.

Hmm, time to go searching through the www.ProBoat.com archives. Ditto on the GMT newsletters & such. Anyone have any other good info sources on these kinds of things? They'd surely be appreciated.

Oh, & my apoligies for monopolizing this thread! Thinking aloud does seem to do that
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Old 26-03-2017, 06:48   #3
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Interesting link, thanks. Do you happen to have the one to the thread over on SA?
My concerns about composite chainplates have always been:
- How do we inspect it/know it's not damaged, or not damaged enough to worry about? Since at present I'm not up to speed on NDI/NDT for such structures, though I surely would like to be. Anyone got some tips?
- How do such chainplates get replaced if they're damaged enough to warrant such? Particularly without needing to pretty much unbuild, & then rebuild the boat around them. Which would make some collisions & accidents with boats that currently are minor or moderate, into catestrophic ones. Even to the point of having to throw away otherwise repairable boats. Or, at that point do we switch the damaged boat back to having standard (metal) chainplates?
Which is probably the cheaper option. Something insurers would love, even at the "cost" of devaluing the boat in question. And or pushing for boats with "minor" damge to be switched over to metal chainplates, when in reality she could be repaired to like new status.

Then there's the old school question. How do we fix such things in distant, low tech ports? Where the needed materials are difficult at best to come by. Ditto on craftsmen who can make the repairs properly. As for a lot of boats it's doubtful that the insurer will pay to fly in a high tech repair team, complete with tools, & appropriate supplies. Such as is done for round the world racers.

And when underway, we'll have to come up with new techniques for keeping a boat viable enough to sail home. Since unlike Steinlager II in the Whitbread Race, it's doubtful that the crew could slice up an engine bed, & fabricate a new chainplate from it. Something which allowed Steinlager II to continue on under sail, when the old chainplate on the mizzen failed, & she sailed on to victory. From somewhere down off the cost of S. America (to Europe, non-stop) if memory serves.
¡
I have no idea,, im just Reading all the tech stuff, one thing is for sure, ss plates could be the 40% of dismasting cases and the composite plates are out there since a while, maybe they design the plates with a hig safety factor so the plates are a integral part of the hull, no corrosión thats for sure, and in case of a collision i guess you have a messy job anyway with ss plates or cf plates .. in any case there is few stock production boats out there where the ss replacement is a nightmare, they mention easy to inspect or replace...
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Old 26-03-2017, 08:55   #4
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

I suspect that they can be repaired the same as any other fiberglass damage, cut out the bad, relay that laminate stack, then let the goop set. No different than you would if a boat took a major strike right to the chainplates with steel. The major difference is that instead of a certain bevel diameter the tows need to be pulled much further out and cover a larger area to spread the bond load.
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Old 26-03-2017, 09:02   #5
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

Havent seen a boat with ribs in a long time.
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Old 26-03-2017, 09:58   #6
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I suspect that they can be repaired the same as any other fiberglass damage, cut out the bad, relay that laminate stack, then let the goop set. No different than you would if a boat took a major strike right to the chainplates with steel. The major difference is that instead of a certain bevel diameter the tows need to be pulled much further out and cover a larger area to spread the bond load.
First, I'm not trying to be negative on this whole issue. But there's a lot of key information on them which has yet to become even semi-common knowledge amongst guys who work on, & sail boats. Including the pro's. So that until some of these questions have viable, practical, solutions, which make fiscal, & other types of sense, I'm gonna' be skeptical of such "hardware".
I'm guessing that some of them are out there by now, given how long composite chainplates have been around. However I've not read Professional Boatbuilder or Seahorse in a decade or so. Thus to some degree I'm likely behind the curve. But that said, the questions still surely seem relavent & important.

I hear what you're saying above, regarding fixes. But the thing is, with integral composite chainplates, the tows of fibers which make them up, are spread out through easily 25-40% of the hull laminate. So that if they're damaged say at deck level, in order to repair them, you'd have to first remove half of the internal structures (furniture) in the boat. Then do your composite work. Followed by rebuilding the boat.
And this assumes that none of their critical fibers are near the surface of the hull laminate. In which case you'd damned near have to rebuild that whole section of the boat, then repaint. Followed by cabinetry jigsaw puzzle reassembly.

Then there's the question as to how does one determine if they were damaged or not in a collision, even if there's no visible hull damage. Since if the chainplates are laid up as part of the hull's structure, & they're made substantially of carbon fiber, while the hull's E-glass, S-glass, or Kevlar. Then the hull's laminate will flex more from an impact by virtue of it's less stiff materials, where things like carbon fiber, S-glass, or other high tech reinforcements might be damaged or fully destroyed from a structural standpoint. And I don't think that you can determine whether or not this has happened due to a collision, simply by x-raying the hull in that area.

Even bonding in new composite chainplates like the ones in the article will be hugely problematic. As while the chainplates themselves are more modular than those made from fiber tows in the hull laminate. Replacing them looks as if it'll entail HUGE debuilds, & subsequent rebuilds of the boat in the regions around the chainplates. Since they're structurally bonded into several different layers of the boat's structure.

Time for me to go become a regular at http://www.ndt.net/forum/ it would seem. That & grab a nap, as yep, I'm cranky. Sorry about that.
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Old 26-03-2017, 10:51   #7
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

So long as the tows are still in place they are still fine strength wise. Remember chainplates are in almost pure tension, so you could actually get away without any resin and they would still hold fine. It would be stupid but you could. My guess is the most likely failure method would be a major physical impact right at the chainplates that substantially damaged the hull. Say being t-boned by another vessel. A major problem to be sure, but it just means you need the laminate schedule of the original layup because you are about to rebuild the entire side of the boat including the chainplates.

I have seen a couple of different designs for them so far, some of which are basically metal chainplates made from G10, others are tows woven into the hull, an one that laid tows as the top layer of glass all the way from one side of the boat to the other. Basically a strap that ran from chainplate to chainplate.

What I haven't seen yet is any reports of them failing, or collision damage leading to needing to rebuild them. So how it will work out I am not sure. My general thought is that each design will have its own repair method. But I am a fan.

Sure the rebuild if damaged problem may get bigger, but I have seen a lot more chainplates fail due to corrosion than impact damage.
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Old 26-03-2017, 11:01   #8
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

To repair carbon fiber it's essential that they be infused or at least vacuum bagged and then cooked to cure them. I know that carbon fiber masts are subject to unforeseen catastrophic damage. I have seen carbon fiber chain plates built for a trimaran by a home builder. They were beautiful but quite a bit larger than stainless chain plates. The builder was quite well versed in fiberglass epoxy construction.
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Old 26-03-2017, 11:08   #9
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

has anyone done studies on the result of lightning strikes to carbon fibre??
i know a trimaran with cf mast struck in south america, who, when sailing north and home, his mast disintigrated when they were just off nicaraugua--this was a while post lightning strike, but... seems to me that if a lightning strike disintigrates cf, it may not be appropriate for chainplates????
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Old 26-03-2017, 11:17   #10
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

Quote:
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So long as the tows are still in place they are still fine strength wise. Remember chainplates are in almost pure tension, so you could actually get away without any resin and they would still hold fine. It would be stupid but you could. My guess is the most likely failure method would be a major physical impact right at the chainplates that substantially damaged the hull. Say being t-boned by another vessel. A major problem to be sure, but it just means you need the laminate schedule of the original layup because you are about to rebuild the entire side of the boat including the chainplates.

I have seen a couple of different designs for them so far, some of which are basically metal chainplates made from G10, others are tows woven into the hull, an one that laid tows as the top layer of glass all the way from one side of the boat to the other. Basically a strap that ran from chainplate to chainplate.

What I haven't seen yet is any reports of them failing, or collision damage leading to needing to rebuild them. So how it will work out I am not sure. My general thought is that each design will have its own repair method. But I am a fan.

Sure the rebuild if damaged problem may get bigger, but I have seen a lot more chainplates fail due to corrosion than impact damage.
This is the same thing I was thinking,, so far i dont found any bad report from a cf plate failing, guess the chances to be holed or t boned are low V a corroded or cracked ss plate, plus they are watertight... hell they look sexy!!!
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Old 26-03-2017, 11:20   #11
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

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has anyone done studies on the result of lightning strikes to carbon fibre??
i know a trimaran with cf mast struck in south america, who, when sailing north and home, his mast disintigrated when they were just off nicaraugua--this was a while post lightning strike, but... seems to me that if a lightning strike disintigrates cf, it may not be appropriate for chainplates????
Zee, a L strike can desintegrate a FG hull to, if the stick is bonded to the keel i guess the chances are nil..
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Old 26-03-2017, 12:56   #12
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
has anyone done studies on the result of lightning strikes to carbon fibre??
i know a trimaran with cf mast struck in south america, who, when sailing north and home, his mast disintigrated when they were just off nicaraugua--this was a while post lightning strike, but... seems to me that if a lightning strike disintigrates cf, it may not be appropriate for chainplates????
A direct strike to an ungrounded carbon mast can pretty easily blow holes in it, it will almost certainly do substantial structural damage. But these days it's pretty rare to see a carbon rig without a grounding wire, in which case they do fine. Well fine for a given definition of just got hit by lightning. Generally a carbon mast with proper grounding is no more at risk from a lightning strike than an aluminium rig is.
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Old 26-03-2017, 13:01   #13
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

Philosophical question: Should one let the chance of catastrophic damage from a collision at the chain plate area and subsequent awkward repair situation drive the design of a hull and rig? Or do the advantages of composite CPs outweigh that issue?

And does not the design of encapsulated metal chain plates (a la Island Packet) suffer from similar repair issues? We seem (at least some of us seem) to accept that risk.

To me, the risk of an expensive repair from a very unlikely collision is small. The probability of replacement issues in encapsulated metal CPs is very high, and even in non-encapsulated metal CPs the eventual replacement is costly and inconvenient.

It's an interesting tradeoff.

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Old 26-03-2017, 13:07   #14
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

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. But the thing is, with integral composite chainplates, the tows of fibers which make them up, are spread out through easily 25-40% of the hull laminate..
No, they're not.
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Old 26-03-2017, 13:27   #15
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Re: The new era on chainplates..

Composite chainplates don't have to be carbon fibre. In fact, unless it's an ultra lightweight racing boat there's really no practical advantage in using CF instead of uni glass. A couple of kilo's at best.

On my boat, as well as some others, the chainplate tow isn't spread over the hull but is built into a partial bulkhead.

In the extremely unlikely event of damage, you could cut out and replace part of the bulkhead. To damage a chainplate you would need to have seriously damaged the hull though.

Countering this mostly imaginary disadvantage are some real benefits.

They'll never leak. Never corrode. They're good for the entire lifetimee of the boat.
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