The best way to attach a tubular radar reflector to a shroud.

[B_Hunter45]

What is the best way to attach a Plastimo tubular radar reflector to the shroud?
some say tiewraps.
I thought about using 3/8" Ubolts.
What have you done?

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by B_Hunter45

What have you done?

Monel wire. You could use stainless steel wire too, I guess.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by B_Hunter45

a Plastimo tubular radar reflector

Honestly don’t bother. That design reflector does essentially nothing at all - it is a really bad design which has been demonstrated in essentially every independent test ever conducted. Just for example see http://newcontent.westmarine.com/con...ors-Report.pdf

I will just quote from it’s summery “The 4” tube reflector is not considered suitable due to its poor performance. It is also recommended that the 2” tube reflector is not suitable since the performance of this target will be even lower.”

And from a prior test:” The two Tubular reflectors performed as might be expected, and were essentially invisible. Only the larger 4" diameter (2" radius) device came anywhere near detectability, with an average return at a 0° angle of heel of just over 1 m2, with no deep nulls. On S-band, the average return was almost 0.5 m2, not enough to be detected. When heeled, however, things fall apart and the return drops to a few duck units (see fig. 8). The smaller is invisible under all conditions, and, with its minimal windage, might make a nice addition for the Stealth Bomber.”

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Honestly don’t bother. That design reflector does essentially nothing at all - it is a really bad design which has been demonstrated in essentially every independent test ever conducted. Just for example see http://newcontent.westmarine.com/con...ors-Report.pdf

I will just quote from it’s summery “The 4” tube reflector is not considered suitable due to its poor performance. It is also recommended that the 2” tube reflector is not suitable since the performance of this target will be even lower.”

And from a prior test:” The two Tubular reflectors performed as might be expected, and were essentially invisible. Only the larger 4" diameter (2" radius) device came anywhere near detectability, with an average return at a 0° angle of heel of just over 1 m2, with no deep nulls. On S-band, the average return was almost 0.5 m2, not enough to be detected. When heeled, however, things fall apart and the return drops to a few duck units (see fig. 8). The smaller is invisible under all conditions, and, with its minimal windage, might make a nice addition for the Stealth Bomber.”

Based on its usefulness and performance, could you use Scotch tape? I laugh each time I see these ineffective things, though word seems to be getting out and there aren't as many as there used to be. Or maybe they're just falling off when the Scotch tape wears out and the owners don't notice any difference. (Because there isn't any.)

[Skededel]

Take a look at the report issued by U.S. Sailing on the topic of radar reflectors. While it is slightly dated it concluded that the tubular reflectors are ineffective. https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content...ector-Test.pdf

[masonc]

Originally Posted by B_Hunter45

What is the best way to attach a Plastimo tubular radar reflector to the shroud?
some say tiewraps.
I thought about using 3/8" Ubolts.
What have you done?

I use stainless tie wraps for durability, but also put two small PVC tile wraps for grip.

[1950]

I seized mine with 1/8' dyneema. Four turns through hole in reflector around shroud and four frapping turns.

Dwight
sv bonnie Mae

[Lodesman]

As previously stated, this type of reflector is not particularly effective, but it is better than nothing. If like me, you found it on the boat, amongst the spare bits left by the PO, then what have you got to lose. While I bought an octahedral reflector and mounted it (catch-rain orientation) high up on a shroud, I mounted the tubular reflector to the MOB marker, which itself is mounted with quick-release clips to the shroud just above the deck. That way it adds an (albeit miniscule) amount of RCS to my vessel, and if I launch the marker, it will paint better than the skinny fibreglass pole it's attached to. I have tested that - it does paint on the radar in relatively benign conditions (bit of a swell, no chop, half mile away).

[a64pilot]

In truth any radar reflector isn’t all that effective, but the best are corner reflectors, places in the “catch rain” position.
If you really want to be seen by someone else’s Radar, you need a transponder. Of course they are more expensive.
I’ve satisfied myself with AIS, under that assumption that most of the big boys that would hurt me and are actually on Radar watch, also are transmitting AIS.

The wild cards in my opinion, the guys to worry about are the recreational power boats and Commercial fishermen that are on autopilot and nobody is watching anything. I’ve been almost run over by a Commercial fishermen on plane going home, as it went by you could see that there was no one in the wheelhouse.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

but it is better than nothing.

No, not the tubular designs. If they are angled even 1 degree, which they always will be, they are really not better than nothing.

The larger tubulars (4”) produce only 1.5% of the ISO absolute functional minimum standard at 1degree angle, and .4% of the minimum standard at 5degrees. The iso says this standard must be met (eg +100% of the standard) at all angles up to 20 degree angle for sailboats.

Those numbers are so small they will typically not even add a speck to the sea clutter.

[canyonbat]

I am not sure how the pair were mounted on our shrouds but both had disappeared within a year of us buying the boat. I suspect plastic tie wraps. We never heard either one come down which was very lucky I think. We replaced them with an inflatable unit with 3 of the corner units inside. We hoist it when conditions warrant. Our friend says it makes a huge difference on how well he sees us.

[tankersteve]

In truth any radar reflector isn’t all that effective, but the best are corner reflectors, places in the “catch rain” position.

I'd disagree. First, size matters, and smaller reflectors just don't return as much energy. As mentioned in this article, reflection increases by the fourth power of the radius, so you get exponential increases (literally) as you increase the size of the reflector.

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvis...adar-Reflector


While substantially more money, the Luneberg design is considered, hands down, to be the most effective at every angle. The octahedral reflectors offer very good returns at very specific angles, but have large quadrants of no reflection.

Tankersteve

[a64pilot]

If you want to be seen, consider an active reflector, God’s knows why they call it that, it’s a transponder for those of us that fly, with aircraft there are two kinds of radar signals, a skin paint, which is very limited in range and a weak signal of course cause it’s only reflected energy.
Then you have a transponder, which is a radio transmitter that replies to a received signal, a signal that is way too weak to give a return, will still trigger a transponder and it will be seen, cause even with a tiny transmitter, it’s still likely thousands of times the power of a reflected return.
However an aircraft transponder sends much more info, especially now, but these devices I’m pretty sure don’t, they just make you be seen much further away, assumption is you would have the return of a steel ship of significant size.

I know of no testing of this device and briefly considered one, but felt the money on an AIS was money better spent, and the likely hood of being run over when a radar return would have saved you is minuscule.
https://www.landfallnavigation.com/e...-rte-7727.html

[model 10]

I often ask big ships if they see me and often get a somewhat annoyed "yes". Sometimes that's because the guy on the radio rousts the captain to answer me.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Ecos

I often ask big ships if they see me and often get a somewhat annoyed "yes". Sometimes that's because the guy on the radio rousts the captain to answer me.

I’ve talked to them pretty far out myself coordinating what they want me to do for a passing as I don’t mind deviating and it seems more logical that I should change course and not them.
After figuring out that I’m open to a course change so that they don’t have to, I’ve always had them be friendly, but I’d bet money that they are seeing me first on AIS and it gives them a much better speed and course plot etc than Radar does.
I’ve not asked how I’m showing up on Radar, I don’t have a reflector.

Those little reflectors don’t really do much, there just isn’t much cross section, there is no magic with Radar RCS, it’s physics.

Years ago. I think the early 80’s one motorcycle magazine did a test with Police Radar to see how close a motorcycle had to really get before they could be clocked, first was it was awfully close really, bikes didn’t have a big RCS, but what was surprising was that many Sport bikes were picked up way before big dressers like a Gold Wing Interstate etc was.
Then they found out that those sport bikes had dual 6” metal reflector headlights, the big dressers of the day had big single plastic reflector headlights, the Radar was “seeing” those headlights, remove those headlights and the Sport Bikes often were hard to accurately clock.
During the day, I used to rock the headlight of my KZ-650 way up to make it nearly impossible to clock by Radar.

Point being I guess is use your Radar to see how far you can see a bouy, and then as you pass, take a look and see what kind of Passive Radar reflector every bouy uses, I know some now have AIS and I believe maybe even transponders too.
But I’ve never seeing one of those little stick reflectors, nor have I seen one fo the Tri lens ones either, and I’d have to assume if they worked better, then the USCG would have incorporated some at least to test.