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21-12-2017, 17:51
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stuart, FL
Boat: Kanter 52' cutter
Posts: 226
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Lewmar dealer in Florida...Florida Hydraulics and Rigging...advised using Liquid O Ring as only lubricant when servicing all winches.....
Clean with white mineral spirits, then apply liquid o ring lubricant......
Has worked for us on large yachts with tons of winches for years...
Liquid-O-Ring[emoji768] Film Forming Lubricant
Lubricants
SKU: 101G
101G Film Forming Lubricant is a premium quality highly concentrated lubricant that resists the corrosive effects of downhole chemicals.
101G is made with LIQUILON[emoji768] , which enhances the lubricity and extreme pressure properties. LIQUILON[emoji768] is unaffected by acids, caustics, downhole chemicals, and hydrocarbons including gasoline and solvents. 101G is inert and thermally stable. T
The filmforming properties of 101G eliminates wear, guards against rust and corrosion, and prevents m e t a l - t o - m e t a l c o n t a c t t h e r e b y s i g n i f i c a l l y reducing operating temperature. In many cases, the power (electricity) to operate is reduced. 101G provides instant lubrication to equipment critical areas during start up.
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21-12-2017, 17:52
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#17
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,567
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir
I understand everything. You want to know what works and I am telling you. I have been servicing every kind of winch you can name since 1978 on boats from 28 - 80 ft so I do know what works. There is no point in looking at what will last 5 years on pawls because no such product exists.
The problem with the grease on the roller bearings is not caused by the quality of the lubricant but by the evil combination of salt and heat which over time sends the lubricant dry and crumbly. If you could arrange to do all your sailing in Finland the winch grease would last years longer because it is not very hot and the water is not very salty.
The most durable winch grease I know of is Super Lube. It will give you two years on your primaries and four or five years on the halyard winches, assuming you use furlers. It can be used for longer but the needles will incur salt damage.
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Let me start by saying in my former life as a chemical engineer I formulated engine coolants and lube, including several patents that are in active use. I also did a lot of testing in the process of developing additive packages. This is near to my heart.
I believe you have great experience, but experience prior to about 2005 is not relevant; the better products did not exist.
Heat and salt will not make a quality synthetic turn dry and crumbly in 5 years. In 5 years, they will typically look new. They do NOT oxidize at temperatures below oven temperatures. It would take 15-20 years for the environment alone to damage the grease. Dirt is a separate matter.
As I said earlier in the thread, Superlube is a good product, but it is not impressive in saltwater service. Green Grease (Omni Lubes), Lewmar Winch Grease, and many other synthetics are much better in terms of wash off and corrosion protection. Thus, it is not a valid data point. BTW, not all synthetics are formulated for saltwater; I listed two that are well tested.
Thus, we do not know that there is "no such product." Perhaps we haven't really looked for it in a systematic way.
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I wouldn't use lithium grease; it is not the most stable. But I do believe a thin coating of a high performing synthetic may be an option worth investigating. All of the cases of stuck pawls seem to involve very long service with too much cheap grease. A good grease could not cause the problem.
But too much of a bad grease, ignored too long, certainly can. Absolutely. I've dug through old winches and old machines. And that is a pretty darn good reason for the winch guys to say "no grease." I'm not planning to investigate grease for this reason.
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21-12-2017, 18:00
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#18
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,567
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailnautilus
Lewmar dealer in Florida...Florida Hydraulics and Rigging...advised using Liquid O Ring as only lubricant when servicing all winches.....
Clean with white mineral spirits, then apply liquid o ring lubricant......
Has worked for us on large yachts with tons of winches for years...
Liquid-O-Ring[emoji768] Film Forming Lubricant
Lubricants
SKU: 101G
101G Film Forming Lubricant is a premium quality highly concentrated lubricant that resists the corrosive effects of downhole chemicals.
101G is made with LIQUILON[emoji768] , which enhances the lubricity and extreme pressure properties. LIQUILON[emoji768] is unaffected by acids, caustics, downhole chemicals, and hydrocarbons including gasoline and solvents. 101G is inert and thermally stable. T
The filmforming properties of 101G eliminates wear, guards against rust and corrosion, and prevents m e t a l - t o - m e t a l c o n t a c t t h e r e b y s i g n i f i c a l l y reducing operating temperature. In many cases, the power (electricity) to operate is reduced. 101G provides instant lubrication to equipment critical areas during start up.
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Interesting, but I didn't see a US source. Where did you get it?
This is heavy grease; not for pawls.
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21-12-2017, 19:02
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,768
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
I will be testing...
- Harken pawl oil
- Lewmar pawl oil
... for corrosion, wash-off, and oxidation stability.
But while I'm at it, what else would be worth testing?
- Passenger car motor oil, if only to confirm it washes off too fast.
- Several bicycle chain oils.
- Chain saw bar oil.
- Lower unit oil. This is too thick (manufacturers generally spec 100-150 ISO), but I'm curious just as a comparison point.
- Other?
I'm open to suggestions. The problem, as I see it, is that manufacturers recommend servicing winches 1-5 times per season, which just sn't going to happen for most people. Modern greases can easily go 5 years, for most people, but the oil can't, and as a result, the pawls and their seats go first. Certainly there must be modern lubricants capable of longer intervals?
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3 in 1
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21-12-2017, 19:09
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#20
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Working in St Augustine
Boat: Woods Vardo 34 Cat
Posts: 3,865
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
T9
You don't want anything too tacky or grease as it can cause the springs to stick and the pawls not engage
__________________
@mojomarine1
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21-12-2017, 19:56
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Norseman 430, Jabberwock
Posts: 1,410
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Andersen recommends using the same grease (theirs) on the pawls and springs as the rest of the winch. At least this was the case at the time my winches were made (c. 2000).Not sure if this is still the case.
I've never had the pawls stick, although one did when new until I cleaned and lubed w/ winch grease.
I last used lithium grease, but will reconsider now. Will be interested in what your test reveals. I have some lube made for an M-16, but I suspect it is lithium.
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21-12-2017, 20:07
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stuart, FL
Boat: Kanter 52' cutter
Posts: 226
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
Interesting, but I didn't see a US source. Where did you get it?
This is heavy grease; not for pawls.
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It is actually not a heavy grease at all.....thick semi liquid in jar.
The name is kind of misleading.....
Google liquid o ring 101 as is available many places....
Also source http://marine-outfitters.com/catalog/item/liquid-o-ring[emoji768]-film-forming-lubricant
Really useful for many applications on boat...then we had to get jar for the garage, then the aircraft hangar....
Great to not have a single purpose product on boat....husband had it out today as he was rebuilding water maker pump........
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21-12-2017, 20:17
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Out of Norfolk Va
Boat: Tartan 37
Posts: 687
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
3 n 1 pawls
Lewmar grease on bearings and gears
I don't think T9 would work on pawls, dries to a protective waxy film. It is good stuff.
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21-12-2017, 21:41
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#24
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,300
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir
... Use chainsaw oil once a year. It comes in an aerosol can so it costs more.
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I too would be interested in seeing a link to a chainsaw oil packaged in an aerosol
can
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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21-12-2017, 22:10
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#25
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,567
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggray
Andersen recommends using the same grease (theirs) on the pawls and springs as the rest of the winch. At least this was the case at the time my winches were made (c. 2000).Not sure if this is still the case.
I've never had the pawls stick, although one did when new until I cleaned and lubed w/ winch grease.
I last used lithium grease, but will reconsider now. Will be interested in what your test reveals. I have some lube made for an M-16, but I suspect it is lithium.
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a. I have tested Anderson grease (oxidation, wash-off, corrosion, EP) and it is a nice product.
b. I've actually used a thin film of grease. Always worked perfectly. Just didn't want to admit it in front of such a stiff crowd. Figured I'd get to that later.
c. Anderson Winches. Grease for pawls. bearings, and gears. (page 5)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5-...I0bnMwTzg/view
11. ... Pawls should only be lubricated with a very thin film of Anderson Winch Grease.
It is a long-lasting synthetic that overcomes the problems we seem worried about. I had not read the Anderson manuals, because I have always had Harken and Lewmar winches. They also list the service interval as 2 years.
d. Antal. again, grease is recommended on the pawls (page 1).
Maintenance Winch
When greasing a winch, apply using a brush on all moving parts including pawls, gears, spindles, shaft bearing washers, etc. Regular cleaning of the winch will improve it's performance and longevity. For winch and gear lubrication, use Type 400 (green) with Teflon.
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So that makes it 50/50. Half of the vendors say high quality grease, half say oil. Since that is hardly unanimous, I guess I'll make some calls.
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21-12-2017, 23:51
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,139
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
I too would be interested in seeing a link to a chainsaw oil packaged in an aerosol
can
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Try post #15
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22-12-2017, 08:20
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: US
Posts: 219
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
We have had success with synthetic greases. Most standard greases and oils are comprised of mixtures of different molecular weight oils that are blended to achieve a desired viscosity. Over time the lower molecular weight oils evaporate or wash away, leaving a thick sometimes varnish like residue. Synthetic oils and greases tend to have a narrower molecular weight or length that inherently has the desired viscosity w/o blending. There is less tendency for lighter components to evaporate. We clean our winches every 1-5 years and find that the synthetic greases show no sign of degradation. We clean and replace the grease anyway. Cleaning away the old grease is a snap.
We keep the boat on the hard for about 7 months each year. Most boat yards are dusty places. Each year before we leave, we tie ropes around the base of the winches and knot the rope with a simple square knot. This helps reduce the amount of dust that gets into the winch. Surprisingly, the ropes were still there after Irma and Maria.
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22-12-2017, 09:05
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southern California
Boat: Catalina 320
Posts: 1,308
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
For pure longevity I wonder if just rubbing them with a little pure carnuba like Harley wax or Mother's wouldn't last forever.
Long ago for bicycle racers for the daily work out bikes ridden in all kinds of weather we'd soak a clean chain in melted paraffin.
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22-12-2017, 09:08
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southern California
Boat: Catalina 320
Posts: 1,308
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
It's not chainsaw chain oil it's just chain oil.
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22-12-2017, 09:24
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New York / Lake Ontario
Posts: 47
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Re: Testing Pawl Oil For Winches
Pawl oil? Is this some real spendy 'yatchy' stuff like a gotta have fishing lure that lures the fisherman to lay a wad out, but fish could care less about? Sounds a bit like 'radiator lube' or 'prop polish'.
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