Teak - Epoxy and then Varnish

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Hi, I know this has been talked about before, but here's my situation: I have a 41-year-old boat with new engine, new windlass, and mostly new electronics. The teak rails on the gunwales and bowsprit and cockpit had minor dings, which I have fixed, but the teak is as old as the boat except for new pieces scarfed in. I used to oil it, but I'm beginning to worry about integrity of the wood. Also, the epoxy will likely help stop some water from getting in via screws under the teak that join deck to hull. And finally I want the boat to look good.

So, I'm thinking to do the following:

Sand it down, wipe with acetone.
Apply three coats of West System 105 / 207
Sand it, wipe with acetone, wash with soap/water to be sure I'm rid of amine blush.
Two coats Petit 2015 (for UV protection)
Sand between all varnish coats with 400 grit
Two coats Petit 1015 (Captains) for hardness

After six months, sand and add two more coats of 1015. I should note that in 2023 I'll be heading to the Caribbean for long term cruising - I'm in NC at the moment. So I may do more coats of Petit 2015, but I'm not sure I need to. And yes, I know more is better, but do I need to do more than four varnish coats over three epoxy coats?

One question is, should I wash the epoxy coats between applications or is the find sanding, followed by acetone, followed by soap and water enough to get rid of amine blush?

I did the above on grabrails about five years ago and they held up well for about a year or 18 months before needing more varnish.

I figure the epoxy will hold the teak together physically for another ten years or so, after which I will probably have to do something completely different.

Does this make sense? I have the time, and I kind of enjoy the process, though I did the handrails indoors when they were off the boat, so this attempt would be weather dependent.

Anything I'm missing?

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Sorry, after "One question is" should have been "final sanding", not "find sanding".

[Rucksta]

Hi

I'm a few years into a similar experiment.
Technique has progressed over the years.

Bare dry timber no wax, oils or previous coatings.

Use a non blushing resin with UV stabilised hardener and a viscosity modifier that allows penetration of the timber.

Multiple coats of epoxy with intermediate sanding required to produce what looks like a finished item i.e. high gloss, smooth before the varnish goes on.

Final sand then multiple coats of clear 2 pack polyurethane with a high UV blocker built in.

Recoat with clear poly or varnish periodically to maintain the surface.
Surface breakdown means return to square one and the bare timber will be smaller than original.


Results are good with recoating at 2.5 years.
I have some smaller removable items such as turning block pads that I plan to run past 3 years.

Best results have been with parts I can remove to ensure all surfaces are treated including backs & ends not just visible surfaces.

Any thing permanently mounted or with a joint that needs to be addressed in situ has not yet lasted 2 years .

The effort of bare timber after just 2 years does not stack up compared to repairable varnish surfaces at 18 months.

I use the bote cote products. Product specs are available on their web site.
I've used their TPRDA additive with other resins with no problems
The TPRDA is the key to getting good epoxy penetration. 2-3 times deeper than evedure and sets to 100% epoxy solid - no residual thinners or micro pores

Good Luck

[Cheechako]

Just never let the varnish go or the epoxy may come up in big blisters or flakes and it's a terrible situation.
Have you considered a pleasant dove grey or brown paint instead? I've seen toe rail caps etc done this way and they looked really good. Paint is much better in the sun.

[tkeithlu]

41 years ago was just about when people started to realize that labor costs were to high to have the yard take care of the teak, and further that they wanted to go sailing rather than spending every nice Saturday taking care of the stuff.

OK, I'm terribly biased, much as i love seeing a beautifully kept wooden boat.

Consider the possibility of getting rid of the problem before you put your boat under the tropical sun by replacing the stuff with artificial teak:

https://www.plasteak.com/plasteak-re...boat-toe-rails

[GreenWave]

Technique is sound. Once you do that there is no going back and you are signing up to annual maintenance that, as Cheechako pointed out, cannot be ignored.

[Bowdrie]

A long time ago I quit using epoxy as an "undercoat" for varnish, both on my own boat and while working for others.
At some point/place the epoxy will fail and you're left with a horrendous job.
For years people have been concocting schemes that use some kind of additive(s) to epoxy to get it to penetrate deeper and/or slow the cure, mostly from a desire to save money, it certainly doesn't save on labor.
You can put whatever you wish in epoxy, and it still will not penetrate any deeper than the first layer of un-broken cell structures in the wood.
One product has stood the test of time, "Smiths", the original patented stuff.
It will penetrate, it's quite expensive but I've not found anything else that will give as good of results.
You put it on till the wood won't soak-up anymore, very lightly sand after it cures and start right in with the varnish, lots of varnish, then more varnish.
Varnish? It's what sailors do, (or should,) and varnishing goes great with drinking beer.

[Rumrace]

I have faux teak toe rails. Once in awhile I let my neighbours see me with a brush touching them up with nothing.
Minwax makes a wood petrifier. It’s like a penetrating oil which solidifies replacing cells. Serious chunk out , new teak if you’ve popped any dowel plugs replace them. Get a plug saw they do a clean job.
You could cover the rail in .3 cloth and Systems West. The cloth will not be visible to the naked eye. It’s about 1/3 the weight used on wood canoes.
I oil real teak, hate peeling varnish.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Thanks for all the answers. Believe me, I understand what I'm getting into by going with varnish. I did it in the beginning, but didn't live where the boat was, so I found I couldn't keep it up if I also wanted to hold down a job, and also go sailing occasionally. So I stripped the varnish after two years and oiled it for a while, but with the local ferry coming and going within 100 yards (the marina is also a ferry terminal) the oil just picked of diesel exhaust particles over time. Then I went grey for a couple of years, but as noted, with the age of the wood, I'm a bit worried about it going overboard without some protection.

So, because of the success of the grab rail experiment, along with stuff I saw on Boatworks videos, it seems the process I described is okay if, and only if, you never let the varnish peel down to epoxy. The general description is, three coats of epoxy plus three coats of varnish are the equivalent of 13 coats of varnish. Though the idea of thin glass cloth over the teak is interesting. We'll see.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

A long time ago I quit using epoxy as an "undercoat" for varnish, both on my own boat and while working for others.
At some point/place the epoxy will fail and you're left with a horrendous job.
For years people have been concocting schemes that use some kind of additive(s) to epoxy to get it to penetrate deeper and/or slow the cure, mostly from a desire to save money, it certainly doesn't save on labor.
You can put whatever you wish in epoxy, and it still will not penetrate any deeper than the first layer of un-broken cell structures in the wood.
One product has stood the test of time, "Smiths", the original patented stuff.
It will penetrate, it's quite expensive but I've not found anything else that will give as good of results.
You put it on till the wood won't soak-up anymore, very lightly sand after it cures and start right in with the varnish, lots of varnish, then more varnish.
Varnish? It's what sailors do, (or should,) and varnishing goes great with drinking beer.

Smith's is just regular epoxy with MEK added to reduce viscosity to that of paint thinner. Check the MSDS, and that's what you'll find.



To the OP, your approach is what I have done for years, except I would always use 7 to 9 coats of varnish.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Thanks Delfin. I agree that with varnish, more is always better.

[Island Time O25]

We've been blessed for the past 12 years owning our boat having toe and grab rails of original bare grey teak. A quick wash with salt water all it takes to keep it clean and natural. Reading the steps and effort needed to epoxy, varnish and keep up the "yotie look" makes me shudder.

As our boat is 42 years old I've been toying with the idea of replacing the teak with either new real teak set or a faux teak set. Anyone can give a rough estimate and comparison to the topic starter's epoxy process cost wise? Also adding annual (bi-annual?) spending on varnish, DIY labor times, etc. The way I look at it - installing new bare grey teak should give it another 40 years of life and easy (and free) salt water maintenance. Am I missing something?

[keepondancin]

I am not a fan of epoxy undercoat. As was pointed out, if you get a failure, It will be very difficult to remove the epoxy to start over. Just water getting under the toe rail can cause a failure. If you do use West Epoxy, wash it before you sand it between coats. If not washed, you will be sanding the Amine blush into the epoxy rather than removing it, and that too can lead to a failure.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

We've been blessed for the past 12 years owning our boat having toe and grab rails of original bare grey teak. A quick wash with salt water all it takes to keep it clean and natural. Reading the steps and effort needed to epoxy, varnish and keep up the "yotie look" makes me shudder.

As our boat is 42 years old I've been toying with the idea of replacing the teak with either new real teak set or a faux teak set. Anyone can give a rough estimate and comparison to the topic starter's epoxy process cost wise? Also adding annual (bi-annual?) spending on varnish, DIY labor times, etc. The way I look at it - installing new bare grey teak should give it another 40 years of life and easy (and free) salt water maintenance. Am I missing something?

I'm no expert, but consider the difference between the old growth teak that was used in boats 42 years ago and the plantation grown stuff that is now the norm. I suspect that there would be significant differences in durability.

We've seen boats where the teak was painted a grey similar to that of aged teak, and it looked pretty good to me.

Jim

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm no expert, but consider the difference between the old growth teak that was used in boats 42 years ago and the plantation grown stuff that is now the norm. I suspect that there would be significant differences in durability. Jim

That's valid, the stuff that was hauled out by an elephant in a country that used to be called Burma, the soil perhaps.
Perhaps I should include a caveat for having some exuberance for varnish, I'm not spending months/years in tropical environments.
But even just a little bit of Teak that's varnished sure takes away some "blandness".