Sunbrella Fabric quality levels

[Captain Anthony]

Ahoy Sailors of the world,
I'm going to have a professional shop replace my dodger and Bimini with sunbrella material. I received 3 estimates, one for around 5 thousand, AND 2 others in the 3 to 4 thousand range. An old salt told me that the reason the 2 lower estimates were given is that they are using the low end sunbrella fabric and thread. So, I looked into it and sure enough, there are different quality sunbrella fabrics and threads. The question is, other than asking the shop, how can a person determine the difference between the better quality fabric and thread and the lesser quality fabric and thread?

I'm a believer in "you get what you pay for" and I'm leaning towards the 5 thousand dollar shop, but how do I tell if the 5 thousand dollar shop is going to use the lower quality fabric and/or thread and is going to just make more of a profit.
What is everyone's opinion/advice?
Aj

[svHyLyte]

Go to the Sunbrella Site and select the fabric you prefer and stipulate that as the material to be used by whomever. Likewise, look up the most suitable thread on the Sailrite.com site and stipulate that. Then have your quotes redone so that the comparisons, at least as to materials, are "apples-to-apples". Note, however, that such a project, to be successful and satisfactory over the long term requires a skilled seamster/seamstress and such skills do not come cheap (although, given the current business environment, may be a lot less costly than in recent past).


FWIW...

[Winter River]

As SvHyLyte said, be sure to get the best thread. There are threads that are completely resistant to UV, Tenara and Profilen are two brands. They are significantly more expensive but they are worth it and will outlast the fabric. Your fabricator will choose the one that works best in their machines.

Don't cheap out and get a merely UV Resistant thread. If you look into those the life is only a few years, even in the less than sunny seasonal use north. Resewing a dodger or bimini is a task to be avoided (says one who has had to do it.)

[Happydrv]

The difference in prices between fabrics is no more than $10 a yard. Your dodger will use 5 or 6, maybe 8 yards. Do you think that explains thousands of difference?
Whatever you do DO NOT use the fabric with a plastic type liner - it shrinks badly.

[a64pilot]

I can’t find the name of it, but we used I think the highest grade, it is infused with plastic on the bottom, but you can’t see it or anything, of course Sunbrella is plastic anyway.
Whatever this grade is called it’s completely 100% waterproof, years later and not been treated with anything. Regular Sunbrella is water resistant and if regularly treated it’s pretty waterproof for a month or so and then the waterproof slowly goes away.

Found it, it’s called Seamark now apparently, ours has not shrunk and we use it for everything, Bimini, full enclosure, dinghy chaps, gas can covers etc.
It is stiffer than regular Sunbreall and maybe a little thicker, but looks identical.
But if you want your Bimini to be really waterproof and not a water strainer, use it.
https://www.sunbrella.com/en-us/text...brella-seamark

[Discovery 15797]

Second the Sunbrella Seamark and PTFE or Tenara thread.

To give you some ideas of material cost..
Top Notch and Top Gun marine fabrics are about $15 per yard
Sunbrella marine grade is about $25 per yard
Sunbrella Seamark is $42 per yard

PTFE & Tenara threads about $130 for 1500 yards
Nylon or polyester threads are about $15 for 1500 yards.

In addition to the cost of materials, there could be significant cost difference based on experience, quality of workmanship, and demand for services. One particular canvas shop in the PNW charges a premium and runs a constant backlog of 3-5 months.

[meirriba]

Also ask the quoters how much material they have estimated.
We did a cockpit closure. Got one quotation double than the other.
When asked for details, the more expensive one had about 50% more material. Simple measured wrongly.

[zengirl]

Sailrite is a wonderful company. There is marine grade and non marine grade available. I would ask the people you are having make this, how much material they need and ask if you can buy it yourself and give it to them. That way you'll know for sure you have what you want. Sailrite will set you set you up with the correct thread and all.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I can’t find the name of it, but we used I think the highest grade, it is infused with plastic on the bottom, but you can’t see it or anything, of course Sunbrella is plastic anyway.
Whatever this grade is called it’s completely 100% waterproof, years later and not been treated with anything. Regular Sunbrella is water resistant and if regularly treated it’s pretty waterproof for a month or so and then the waterproof slowly goes away.

Found it, it’s called Seamark now apparently, ours has not shrunk and we use it for everything, Bimini, full enclosure, dinghy chaps, gas can covers etc.
It is stiffer than regular Sunbreall and maybe a little thicker, but looks identical.
But if you want your Bimini to be really waterproof and not a water strainer, use it.
https://www.sunbrella.com/en-us/text...brella-seamark

Just leaving this here for reference, but to also comment on waterproofing of what I presume to be standard Sunbrella - no backing, and after 15 years, thin enough to see sunlight behind many places.

Aside from over the bows of the frame, there has been no abrasion failure (the environment has little chafe opportunity on Flying Pig); those have been reinforced with a vinyl leather-look fabric.

Starting about 4 years ago, and having done it now twice, we think we can reasonably say that using 303 Fabric Guard as directed - one side only, spray light film until saturated, twice or more (I went L-R/U-D/45° offset on my 4 coats; my 12x15 piece took a full gallon; protect your mast-top window!!) - works a treat. NO leaks for close to 2 years and then only seams beginning ~2 years or so in. A camping seam sealer might cure that issue.

Our prep is to wash both sides gently (Sunbrella doesn't do abrasion well), completely rinse and allow to thoroughly dry; we had the advantage of a concrete pad in a relative's carport for all of this. We used plastic lawn furniture and milk crates to keep it off the deck during drying.

At the risk of thread drift, I wonder about this stuff for dinghy chaps, as the Tough Stuff (Miami Awning) we used is totally useless for UV; the second chaps are now shredding. We chose it because it was extremely tolerant of abrasion and short of a direct stick with a pointed object, or slice with a sharp blade or scissors, would not cut. Seaming/piping was not needed; a scissors clean cut edge will last forever. But a couple of years in the sun destroys it, along with the noted strength.

Anyone have any high-abrasion environment experience with SeaMark?

[jmschmidt]

Anyone who really believes the BS that "you get what you pay for" is a fool. That old adage doesn't apply to the real world and it never did. It makes people feel good (for a while) when the pay more that they should. It's a way to rationalized getting taken. Anyone who tries to sell you something needs to be checked and double-checked before committing to get the best deal and watched like a hawk afterwards to make sure they deliver. Many times the lower price and better workmanship is offered by an honest person.

[FabioC]

If you truly want to be sure, buy the fabric and thread yourself, and get quotes just for the labor. Sunbrella has distributors all over the country. That way, you can also make sure that you get the exact color you want for both fabric and thread.

[trimarannaga]

I am a retired sailmaker and canvas worker. Heres my 2 cents.
Use Tenara or Profilin thread. Lasts forever. Really. Regular UV thread will need to be re-stitched after a few years of exposure. Restitching just looks sloppy. Sunbrella marine grade is fine but after 2 or3 years is no longer waterproof
The Sunbrella Plus really does stay waterproof. Seamark is a sunbrella with a vinyl coating on the inside and stays waterproof but you may not like the vinyl look and feel. Re stretching and shrinking, if rhe dodger is built right that should not be an issue unless you often take off the canvas, or fold up the dodger, then any fabric is going to stretch or shrink. Absolutly stay away from cheap sunbrella copies, the fabric may be acrylic like sunbrella but it just doesnt last.
The darker side of the color spectrum is the best for fade resistance, red yellow and orange fade after just 3 years. Greens and blues do well and dark bblues and black is longest to hold its color. Beige has a tendency to change color. Gray is good too for keeping its original color but does fade slightly.
The most important part of the dodger is the windows. Go with the high grade stuff here. I suggest Regalite or Strataglass. Dont clean it with anything except vinegar and water. Dont get bug spray on sunscreen on it Use YKK #10 zippers and make sure all exposed zippers are covered with a flap of fabric. Velcro sucks in the sun but has its uses, just make sure none is exposed to the sun.
I personally find dogers and enclosures are the most difficult canvas jobs to manufacture. No 2 are identical. Many curves and shapes and it has to be tight and smooth and, well, perfect. Labor intensive. That really is what you want, perfect, and therefore a high price for a typical dodger.
Hope all this helps.
Cheers!

[dkroar]

Anyone have any high-abrasion environment experience with SeaMark?[/QUOTE]

We have a full dodger/bimini enclosure with the top made out of SeaMark, and the zip-off sides made out of matching marine grade Sunbrella. This was originally put on the boat by the previous owners, and made professionally someplace in the Caribbean. It's been on the boat approximately 15 years, we have owned the boat for 6. The underside is the vinyl side, and with appropriate regular cleaning, looks almost brand new, the topside doesn't get cleaned as often, and is showing its age, and wear. It's the Sunbrella side on top, and as usual, Sunbrella doesn't take abrasion well, we have a leather strip on the leading age of the dodger. I'm replacing the whole thing this spring, mainly because the zippers are giving out, and I'm changing the color, but the stitching is still good. They must have used a lifetime thread. The Sunbrella sides also received a regular spring clean, and a good soaking with 303 water repellency spray, they are wearing thin due to age. I replaced the forward strataglass "windshield" two year ago, as all of the window vinyl is cloudy, and we needed a better view. I'm going to use a marine grade polycarbonate, called Makrolon, in .40 weight, and I'll still be able to sew it with my Sailrite machine. I've purchased special thread, and needles in order to handle it. If you're interested in more, I made several posts about the windshield 2 years ago, and I'll be posting more about the refit, as it progresses.

[a64pilot]

Ref the vinyl underside of SeaMark, you can’t see it, it’s not like vinyl upholstery that has a fabric side and a plastic side, the underside must be plastic infused, because they say it is, and it may be a tiny bit darker, maybe? The fabric is stiffer than regular Sunbrella but other than that it looks identical.
So far as chafing, our dinghy chaps are SeaMark and a few years old, made by the Lady that does sewing in Vero Beach, but anyway in a heavy sea the dinghy will move side to side at times and chafe against the davits, it’s gotten discolored from this I assume rubbing the SS off of the davit arm over time and does have a small amount of wear. Pic attached.
The dinghy is very tight up against the davit, but it’s also inflated to 3 PSI so it’s real stiff so it doesn’t deform around the arm.
A davit arm would very similar to a Bimini bow chafing wise, but if it were chafing against something rough I don’t think it or any normal fabric would hold up long

[a64pilot]

Sail rite video on Seamark, also of course shows the material etc.
https://youtu.be/Yq8vuvHkPm4