Steel Boat Building Price and Advise?

[gjordan]

I suspect that the OP has long since given up on steel boats by now, but I will try to clear up some definitions.Hopefully without starting an argument. Round bilge metal boats , if done well will look just like a production fiberglass boat. All compound curves. A hard chine boat (sometimes called a single chine boat) will look just like the old Thunderbird. The topsides will be flat plate (plywood or steel) that is bent in only one direction over ribs that are straight to the joint with the bottom plate. The joint is the chine. The bottom plate is also only bent in one plane. In a multi chine boat the ribs will still be straight on each of its sections, but there will be an intermediate section so that the change of angle from topside plate to bottom plate is split by making 2 lesser angles such as shown on the photos of Alchemy. There is still no compound curves involved in this type of construction. It is still plate bent on only one plane. There are also some multi chine boats(mostly European) that have more than just 2 joints. A Radius chine boat will be similar to a multi chine boat, in that the topside plate will be flat plate only bent on one plane, and the bottom plate will be the same. The difference will be in the intermediate plating area where the rib will be curved and the plate will be rolled to a compound curve. That radius part will look a little like a section of banana peal. If you run your hand down the side of a multi chine boat you will be on a flat topside and then an somewhat sharp angle change to the intermediate flat plate, and then another change to the bottom plate. On a Radius chine boat running your hand down the side will bring you from flat topside plate to a soft curved intermediate plate, on down to the flat bottom plate. There will be no abrupt change of angle. At this point I am not even sure if I am making this clear to myself, but maybe someone with the computer skills to post drawings of rib designs or the various finished styles could do that.______Grant.

[Honey Ryder]

If I were you I would look around for an unfinished project.

What you want to look for is a hull and deck that has been professionally built, so all welds are good. In a perfect world the boat was built in Holland at the height of their steel boatbuilding reputation. In this perfect world you would find a boat that had spent as little time as possible in seawater.

Then you want to get the boat out of the water, totally strip out the entire interior back to bare metal, and then sandblast every inch, inside and out. For a 45' boat, and with the right blasting equipment, the boat can be back to bare metal in 2-3 days. Then paint everything with 2-3 coats of Ameron epoxy (summer time so the temp is right), and then start your rebuild (fir, insulate, line).

If you know how to weld then you can get an angle grinder and make all kinds of modifications. Cut out old rusty water tanks, add things like ventilation shafts to support dorade boxes, maybe put in a hatch or two, lower a floor to gain more headroom, etc.

The great thing about a steel boat is that it is easy to modify with basic and easy to use equipment. You can even cut out areas of the hull where the steel may be thin due to corrosion. It is no big deal.

But be careful not to buy a dead steel boat. This will be a 30 year old boat that may look good on the outside, but is rusty on the inside. Steel boats rust from the inside, so beware. You can either get it surveyed or buy a machine yourself for about $400 which will tell you exactly how thich the steel is, and then you jjust spend a few hours mapping the entire hull. Or you look at it stripped back to bare metal on the inside. Dont buy a steel boat unless you know how thick the hull is....or you could be wasting all of your money. I know someone who nearly shelled out big bucks for a great looking steel boat that he then discovered was paper thin when it was surveyed (it was then sold for scrap metal).

Alternatively, try and find a boat for sale that somebody else has already done all the work themselves, and can prove it. I have pictures for the entire renovation of my boat which I am nearly 5 years into. Chances are that a boat like this will not be cheap (unless it is ugly) because of the huge amount of resources that have gone into it to get it to this stage.

So, if you have the time and the skills, try and pick up an unfinished project, blast, paint, modify, and then re-fit. You could end up with your dream boat.

I have lowered floors, replaced ladders with stairs, added a big sun roof hatch, turned two heads into one big one, converted two small cabins into one big one, laid 1" teak floors, insulated ten times better than before, extended my pilothouse to add another berth, etc. These are all things you can easily do with a steel boat that would be considerably harder to accomplish with aluminum or fibreglass.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

The killer with steel is not building, in my opinion, it's maintenance.

If you're the sort of person who hates gardening because of weeds, and resents mowing lawns, you might not enjoy owning a steel boat.

A steel boat does not require more maintenance than any other type of material if build properly.
Curiously I am not keen in pulling weeds and I own a steel boat.
As for S/V Alchemy the owner does not seem to like pulling weeds either.

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

Steel is also amenable to heat-shrinking

I would not recommend it. It will affect the properties of the steel getting shrunk. A steel boat when designed and built properly should not necessitate heat shaping or filler.
Steel round bilge boat are often build using what used to be called a “conical development” the shape of the hull is more controlled by the way it can be build than by the way it should be build and often do not make very good boat.

Now for the cost of a 37 foot pilothouse cutter the Australian dollars mentioned must be adjusted to its equivalent US$ at the time of purchase. The metric ton of steel was around AU$ 1000.00 and Ssteel was around AU$ 7.00 per kilo for 304 and AU$ 10.00 for 316. Adjust accordingly. The cost does not show the value of recycled material nor does it take into consideration costed material left over.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by gjordan

I suspect that the OP has long since given up on steel boats by now, but I will try to clear up some definitions.Hopefully without starting an argument. Round bilge metal boats , if done well will look just like a production fiberglass boat. All compound curves. A hard chine boat (sometimes called a single chine boat) will look just like the old Thunderbird. The topsides will be flat plate (plywood or steel) that is bent in only one direction over ribs that are straight to the joint with the bottom plate. The joint is the chine. The bottom plate is also only bent in one plane. In a multi chine boat the ribs will still be straight on each of its sections, but there will be an intermediate section so that the change of angle from topside plate to bottom plate is split by making 2 lesser angles such as shown on the photos of Alchemy. There is still no compound curves involved in this type of construction. It is still plate bent on only one plane. There are also some multi chine boats(mostly European) that have more than just 2 joints. A Radius chine boat will be similar to a multi chine boat, in that the topside plate will be flat plate only bent on one plane, and the bottom plate will be the same. The difference will be in the intermediate plating area where the rib will be curved and the plate will be rolled to a compound curve. That radius part will look a little like a section of banana peal. If you run your hand down the side of a multi chine boat you will be on a flat topside and then an somewhat sharp angle change to the intermediate flat plate, and then another change to the bottom plate. On a Radius chine boat running your hand down the side will bring you from flat topside plate to a soft curved intermediate plate, on down to the flat bottom plate. There will be no abrupt change of angle. At this point I am not even sure if I am making this clear to myself, but maybe someone with the computer skills to post drawings of rib designs or the various finished styles could do that.______Grant.

Hmm. OK, so I have a multi-chined hull, I suppose, by this definition (with which I'm not going to argue as it seems well-reasoned). The bit of my boat you cannot see, however, is the deck, which is cambered in an unbroken curve in order to shed water and to provide a "flat" place to stand while heeled. The coach house and pilot house are more typically welded in angled plates.

So perhaps I have a radius chine deck on a multi-chined hull? Dunno. She sails smartly, and I think I'll keep her!

I concur we've probably driven off the OP with all this metal boat talk. Hazard of the subject, I find.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by chala

Curiously I am not keen in pulling weeds and I own a steel boat.
As for S/V Alchemy the owner does not seem to like pulling weeds either.

Gardening is for lubbers, mate. I have a skinny and long backyard with four fruit-bearing trees in it. My method of gardening is to litter kitchen compost around the trunks in the spring, and to run a leaky length of hose from the rainbarrel more or less past the roots. I lay out worn-out sails as tarps to kill off the grass and weeds, and then I pick up the deadfall and pruned bits (assume I even bother), and run 'em through a wood chipper to create ground cover.

Every three years, I circle the perimeter with a running chain saw at knee level to keep down the weed trees and to create woodchip stock. Lawnmowing? Hedge-clipping? Bah.

All this amounts to an afternoon per year for a load of cherries, apricots, apples and plums, all of which taste nicer on the boat!

[Matt sachs]

"So, if you have the time and the skills, try and pick up an unfinished project, blast, paint, modify, and then re-fit. You could end up with your dream boat."

Thats what I'm doing.

With a toerail like this one, do I need a jib track? Is there anything wrong with attaching a block to the toerail to trim the jib? I thought I might even build a car that sits on the toerail. Whatdoya think?

[S/V Alchemy]

There's nothing wrong with it, but the reason to put a genoa track inboard is to point higher. The reason to run a car, either on a "pin" or on a continuous line capable of being cleated, is to maintain the correct angle while reducing sail.

It's a Roberts in steel. You want a honking big genoa and a way to sheet in hard for maximum windward oomph.

Toerails with holes are great for hanging fenders, clipping halyard shackles to, and fairleading furling lines.

Just my .02.

[Matt sachs]

Thanks for the input. I'll go with the track

[hpeer]

Ted Brewer has some good examples of round and radius chine in his books.

Good Old Boat - Is there a metal yacht in your future? article

I have to agree why build when you can buy.

We bought a good Pape boat, had ~$50K of receipts for new stuff like engine, sails, electronics, windlass. Ready to sail.

Last night I looked at last years receipts for outfitting to single hand. Well over another $30K. Radar, strong track, additional winches, rope, sails, sat phone, etc.

There is just SOOOOOOO much you can spend on a boat it is frightening.

But that is true no matter what the basic material.

P.S. Really like the Pape. God awful heavy, but real comfy. I had trouble sailing her last summer, but I think that had more to do with an inadequate sail wardrobe. Only genoa was a VERY heavy Yankee, that didn't set right. Hopefully we have that fixed now with a lapper and a drifter.

[Wand]

Originally Posted by gjordan

I suspect that the OP has long since given up on steel boats by now, but I will try to clear up some definitions.Hopefully without starting an argument. Round bilge metal boats , if done well will look just like a production fiberglass boat. All compound curves. A hard chine boat (sometimes called a single chine boat) will look just like the old Thunderbird. The topsides will be flat plate (plywood or steel) that is bent in only one direction over ribs that are straight to the joint with the bottom plate. The joint is the chine. The bottom plate is also only bent in one plane. In a multi chine boat the ribs will still be straight on each of its sections, but there will be an intermediate section so that the change of angle from topside plate to bottom plate is split by making 2 lesser angles such as shown on the photos of Alchemy. There is still no compound curves involved in this type of construction. It is still plate bent on only one plane. There are also some multi chine boats(mostly European) that have more than just 2 joints. A Radius chine boat will be similar to a multi chine boat, in that the topside plate will be flat plate only bent on one plane, and the bottom plate will be the same. The difference will be in the intermediate plating area where the rib will be curved and the plate will be rolled to a compound curve. That radius part will look a little like a section of banana peal. If you run your hand down the side of a multi chine boat you will be on a flat topside and then an somewhat sharp angle change to the intermediate flat plate, and then another change to the bottom plate. On a Radius chine boat running your hand down the side will bring you from flat topside plate to a soft curved intermediate plate, on down to the flat bottom plate. There will be no abrupt change of angle. At this point I am not even sure if I am making this clear to myself, but maybe someone with the computer skills to post drawings of rib designs or the various finished styles could do that.______Grant.

Thanks Grant, that all seems fair and reasonable. So I'd be keen to hear how you and/or others might classify this hull, which seems (to my inexperienced eye anyway) to have compound curving on the topside plate and on the bottom plate with a soft chine between...

[chala]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

Is there anything wrong with attaching a block to the toerail to trim the jib? I thought I might even build a car that sits on the toerail. Whatdoya think?

So long the block does not damage the topside and the car does not wreck the toe rail or you are in fore some dreaded maintenance.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

Thanks for the input. I'll go with the track

How will you fasten the tracks to the deck?

[Matt sachs]

Nothing is actually attached to the deck. I drill oversized holes thru the deck and fill it with west. Then I drill thru the west and bolt to the steel framework under the deck. If there was no steel where I want to put something like the windlass, I added it and braced it to the hull. I did this with the cleats and stanchions as well and it worked out nicely. I suppose the tracks will be done the same way. How much force do the tracks have to withstand? (Thats a vague question, I know)

[chala]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

Nothing is actually attached to the deck. I drill oversized holes

This may come a little too late but in my view, to prevent damage to the steel protective coating anything fasten to steel should not be able to move. For that reason I normally try to reduce the amount of fitting that require bolting to the steel. When I need to fasten winches, capstan, I normally fit them on 316 SS pad that I weld to the steel before the protective coating is applied to the steel. All the holes are threaded, the fittings are screwed to the SS using sealant and internally, a locknut, some sealant and a large washer is used. For portholes where the cost of welding SS will be to expensive threaded holes are cut into the steel, a rubber gasket seal the Perspex to the opening and the 6mm 316 holding bolts that screw into the threaded hole. Sealant and a special nylon sealing and locking washer is used in the inside with a nut. To my knowledge a threaded hole is the best way of reducing movement.

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

How much force do the tracks have to withstand? (Thats a vague question, I know)

Normally the track must be able to carry the load that the block will carry. The block must be suitable for the sheets, the sheets for the size of the foresail and the foresail for its intended use. The angle at witch the sheet is departing the block must also be taken into consideration and of course all other equipment (tailing winches, spinlock, etc) must be adequately sized. I get you some information about how to size this and where to place the tracks.

[Matt sachs]

Normally the track must be able to carry the load that the block will carry. The block must be suitable for the sheets, the sheets for the size of the foresail and the foresail for its intended use. The angle at witch the sheet is departing the block must also be taken into consideration and of course all other equipment (tailing winches, spinlock, etc) must be adequately sized. I get you some information about how to size this and where to place the tracks.


Thanks. The track placement dosent have to be finalized just yet. (but I need to iron this out soon) They will be roughly on both sides of the cockpit. I'm prepping for spray foam currently.