Standing rigging - to replace or not to replace

[Max S]

Hello, we've got a 1970 Sparkman & Stephens Deb 33 which we bought last summer. We've done a bunch of work on it, including replacing all the seacocks.

Initially, we planned to change the standing rigging because it's not exactly known when the last owner did, we think it's been about 20 years. Right now we've just finished about 75% of the french canals from the english channel and are on the Rhone, which also means our mast is down and laying on two supports on our deck, if we're going to order up some new rigging we want to do it now.

We're in our 20s and have to go back to study in September and are borderline running out of our savings so this is a big decision.

The thing is, based on what I can find the second last owner, who had the boat well over 20 years, oversized everything a bit. He changed from a single backstay and mounted new massive chainplates on the stern and switched to dual backstays, the forestay is 10mm thick and the shrouds are all 7mm. This boat is about 5.7t displacement.

We sailed from the north of the Netherlands to Le Havre France last September/October with many Beaufort 6 days and the rig at full power almost every day.

I know no one on the forums can really tell me without a visual inspection if we're good to put the same rigging back up in Marseille but.... What do you think? Is it risky to try and go for another season on the Med with the old rigging? I'd get a rigger to check it out but we're still quite far inland and are taking our time on the rivers... Just looking for some opinions I guess. Thanks!

[boris]

Stainless steel rigging is good until it is not! It may not fail for 5 more years or 2 more years or tomorrow are you willing to tack the risk ?

[Searles]

As they say in the classics ,do you feel lucky ,if the standing rigging is 1/19 s/s and it’s 20 or so years old,no one on this planet can tell you how good it is,it may look fine and fail five minutes or 1 hy later ,replace all standing rigging while the mast is down ,also check all mast sheaves and electrical wiring ,not only but including all mast lights ,better safe than sorry.⛵️⚓️👍

[12 sail away]

Also visual inspection will give you no answers. Also take insurance into consideration many demand after 15 or 20 years a -proven- replacement, at least mine does and I am dutch, live in Netherlands but with a boat in the Mediterranean. And in case you plan to keep the boat for a long time, replacing rigging will take a big worry away. I thought it is the no 1 failure during sailing at sea and if this happens the insurance can ask many questions with very unsatisfactory outcomes.

[catsketcher]

Replacing rigging is a guess - no one knows when to replace stainless rigging so we replace it about every 10 years.

Of course there are cable and suspension bridges with cables that have been up for over 100 years and the cables are fine. The problem is that there is no common engineering standard that the rigging is stressed too. If you were to keep the loads low then the need to replace the rigging reduces. Fatigue is what causes stainless rigging failure and fatigue is driven by cycling AND load.

No one knows what percentage of ultimate stress your rigging is under and what the fatigue cycle limit is. So asking a question about rigging without knowing the rigging stress and the way it is sailed has so many unknowns that obtaining a proper answer is impossible.

If you are not rich then consider taking the rigging off the mast now and sending it to a rigger. Ask around for quotes and if you like you can keep your turnbuckles. There may be architectural firms that do shade sails that use stainless steel rigging near canals too. Try to stay away from glitzy marine places. It is far cheaper to go to a place near fishing ports and shade sail makers to get work done.

I always take my rigging off and take it to the rigger. I get charged less than half the amount my friends are because of labour reduction. Get started now and start calling around and chatting to lots of different people. Maybe a quick trip in a bus with a box full of wire would be okay and save you thousands - but waiting till you are in an expensive port can cost you lots of money.

Of course the alternative is to see if some of your rigging could be replaced with Dynex Dux - Dyneema. You don't need to Brummel splice it, it is easier to take constructional stretch out if you do a normal ski rope splice and if your tangs are suitable it could do well for lowers, intermediates and backstays. You can do all the splcing yourself. It just depends on getting the right Dyneema for a good price and fitting the dyneema into your tangs.

cheers

Phil

[Max S]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Replacing rigging is a guess - no one knows when to replace stainless rigging so we replace it about every 10 years.

Of course there are cable and suspension bridges with cables that have been up for over 100 years and the cables are fine. The problem is that there is no common engineering standard that the rigging is stressed too. If you were to keep the loads low then the need to replace the rigging reduces. Fatigue is what causes stainless rigging failure and fatigue is driven by cycling AND load.

No one knows what percentage of ultimate stress your rigging is under and what the fatigue cycle limit is. So asking a question about rigging without knowing the rigging stress and the way it is sailed has so many unknowns that obtaining a proper answer is impossible.

If you are not rich then consider taking the rigging off the mast now and sending it to a rigger. Ask around for quotes and if you like you can keep your turnbuckles. There may be architectural firms that do shade sails that use stainless steel rigging near canals too. Try to stay away from glitzy marine places. It is far cheaper to go to a place near fishing ports and shade sail makers to get work done.

I always take my rigging off and take it to the rigger. I get charged less than half the amount my friends are because of labour reduction. Get started now and start calling around and chatting to lots of different people. Maybe a quick trip in a bus with a box full of wire would be okay and save you thousands - but waiting till you are in an expensive port can cost you lots of money.

Of course the alternative is to see if some of your rigging could be replaced with Dynex Dux - Dyneema. You don't need to Brummel splice it, it is easier to take constructional stretch out if you do a normal ski rope splice and if your tangs are suitable it could do well for lowers, intermediates and backstays. You can do all the splcing yourself. It just depends on getting the right Dyneema for a good price and fitting the dyneema into your tangs.

cheers

Phil

Hey guys, thanks for the replies so far. With our boat being 55 years old there's hardly any insurance that we've found that'll cover it anyways, even if the rigging was new (just saying, we just have 3rd party liability now).

I was looking into Dyneema this morning, I'll continue to research it. But your post brings me to another question I wanted to ask. You said we possibly re-use some turnbuckles, are those an item in the rigging that is less prone to failure? Could we have the turnbuckles inspected themsevles? Because my plan is to replace the rigging myself anyways, those 9 turnbuckles make up a large portion of the cost.

And then that brings us to chainplates.... when I did the first handful of estimates it was just for the wiring and hardware. But I feel like it would almost be a waste to spend thousands to replace everything and then leave in old chainplates... I guess those should come out too?

I guess I'll probably replace everything. I saw this video a while back, seems like this guy has been around haha. He says he uses galvanized rigging because it's honest, but it's also way cheaper. I'm doing some reading on that route also. We live on this boat by the way, so as far as maintenance goes we're pretty on top of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNh56ZKa4HY&t=296s

Thanks,

Max

[Leadfree]

a simple Google of "standing rigging replacement schedule" returns quite a bit of information, and the consensus (and our riggers) suggest 10-15 year interval.

Past time for you to replace your rigging, bro

[barnakiel]

20 years old, SS, it is dead


I could send you a picture of a shroud fitting fail on a boat that spent 20 years at the dock, the fitting went right where it goes into the mast


imho 20 years old used or not used, oversized or not, it it is SS wire and pressed fittings, it is as good as DEAD


I would replace, everything, mast plates to the deck, and I would also pull the chainplates and act accordingly, often they are also deat at 20 years - unless your boat is some e HQ product (Swan, HR, etc)


barnakiel

[edlithgow]

Galvanized should be cheaper, should last longer (potentially indefinately with maintenance) plus you'll KNOW when/if its knackered in the future, rather than guessing, as you are now with your shiny stuff.


Synthetic will be more expensive, and, as I understand it, will age almost as invisibly as the shiny stuff. It will save weight aloft, but you sound like you dont percieve a weight problem with your current oversize rigging


Given that you arent scared of maintenance, seems a pretty simple choice

[edlithgow]

I''m in a similar position with a newly acquired neglected boat, though the age of the rig is unknown, the mast is up, I havnt inspected it properly yet, and the turnbuckles are galvanized.


The prudent thing would be to replace everything with the exception of the turnbuckles if they inspect OK, but I'll probably delay this unless anything looks dodgy, then replace the wire with galvanized next season.


In your case I assume your turnbuckles are stainless so potentially subject to surprise failure, but I wonder if you could back them up/double them with lanyards as a belt-and-braces way of keeping them in service?


This would give you the problem of isolating your replacement galvaized wire from your SS turnbuckles, so may not be practical, though casual examination suggests my galvanized turnbuckles have co-existed OK with my stainless steel wire and other fittings

[Franziska]

A friend of mine had a lower chair plate fail just days ago.
Luck had it the mast did not come down.


He says that all chain plates got replaced 10 years ago.


They looked good on deck and under deck but where they passed through the few cm sandwich deck they got eaten by crevice corrosion.
He pulled all out after the incident and told me they all need replacing.


Not sure how yours are attached, but if they go through the deck, replace them.


Otherwise pull a few chainplate bolts and check their condition.


You could also do an extra check on the chain plates by dye marker to verify that they don't have cracks.


Last not least, sailing a few days hard in an F6 should not do anything harmful to a well set up rig.


Good luck.

[El Pinguino]

For the OP.
It's all good until it isn't.
You don't have to change it all at once.
A bit more info re terminations would be nice.
So what I would suggest is replacing the hardest working bits first, the lowers. They are what will lose you your mast - don't ask.
If swaged change to Sta- loks.
Bring back all the needed bits from home next season, do the work yourself, no biggy if mast already down.
Move on next season to the uppers.
If swaged check for broken strands where the wire enters the swage.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Max S

Hey guys, thanks for the replies so far. With our boat being 55 years old there's hardly any insurance that we've found that'll cover it anyways, even if the rigging was new (just saying, we just have 3rd party liability now).

I was looking into Dyneema this morning, I'll continue to research it. But your post brings me to another question I wanted to ask. You said we possibly re-use some turnbuckles, are those an item in the rigging that is less prone to failure? Could we have the turnbuckles inspected themsevles? Because my plan is to replace the rigging myself anyways, those 9 turnbuckles make up a large portion of the cost.

And then that brings us to chainplates.... when I did the first handful of estimates it was just for the wiring and hardware. But I feel like it would almost be a waste to spend thousands to replace everything and then leave in old chainplates... I guess those should come out too?

I guess I'll probably replace everything. I saw this video a while back, seems like this guy has been around haha. He says he uses galvanized rigging because it's honest, but it's also way cheaper. I'm doing some reading on that route also. We live on this boat by the way, so as far as maintenance goes we're pretty on top of it.


Thanks,

Max

Since your boat is older, you may have those chrome covered bronze chainplates like I do which almost never fail.

I did replace two turnbuckles though before I found out about the bronze turnbuckles.

My boat is a 1974 Bristol 27, and the rigging is at least 20 years old so I have started replacing it a bit at a time with the mast up. I started this 2 years ago.

I added a second backstay, replaced the forward lowers, and replaced the chainplates.

I found one chainplate with a hairline crack. The rest looked fine as did the bolts.

I plan to replace the stern lowers next.

I still worry though when sailing in winds up around 25 knots or so which happened again last weekend.

[mako]

OP I don’t think overaizing your standing rigging is a good idea. Find out what size it was designed as and return to those specs.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

For the OP.
It's all good until it isn't.
You don't have to change it all at once.
A bit more info re terminations would be nice.
So what I would suggest is replacing the hardest working bits first, the lowers. They are what will lose you your mast - don't ask.
If swaged change to Sta- loks.
Bring back all the needed bits from home next season, do the work yourself, no biggy if mast already down.
Move on next season to the uppers.
If swaged check for broken strands where the wire enters the swage.

This..
The cheaper option is galvanised though this could lead to sail discolouration where they rub against the wire.
On the positive side when you need new sails switch to Tan.. less glare and look great..