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Old 14-12-2022, 12:14   #61
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Jan,

Here is a couple on a tight budget who built their arch from tube and fittings from scratch without welding. Might be worth watching. The only thing I will say is
the fittings are held with a grub screw which isn't enough, so having a similar construction, I have drilled, tapped and fitted screws as well.

Pete

Grub screw holds it in place, drill and bolt through makes it safe and reliable.
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Old 14-12-2022, 12:22   #62
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

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Originally Posted by synonym View Post
Thanks all!
And thanks bccoast for your description of your experiences with unpolished 316 and 306.

I hear all the voices for solutions like Atlantic towers. Issue is, the boat is a Hanseat Kommodore center cockpit ketch from 1979. There is only about 20 in existence and Hanseat went bust in the 80s. Accordingly, no out of the box solution works...at least none I ever found.

After hearing and seeing the examples of the non-weld solutions, I don't find them as awful as everybody says. The solution I had in mind even works without the clamp style joints that mess the optics up a bit.
The ONE workshop that is currently engaging with me on reasonable terms would actually use the very same parts and weld them together. So now I am thinking, let's just take those unpolished 316 pieces. I build the thing and glue it together or otherwise fix it provisiorically and then the workshop can weld it.
I actually do have a welder (the stick type...I always confuse the abbreviations) that I got on the cheap once. But I never used it and I am doubtful if welding relatively thin walled SS tubes is the right first welding project. A few dots, ok. But circular seams? I am a handy person, but lack the required coordination for that, I think.

Seems like things are on hold until January, when the workshop has time. Then I will know how much they want to build the whole thing or just weld it once built by me, and I guess that's decision time then.

My most crucial learning now was that the unpolished 316 shouldn't be as much of a problem as everybody wanted me to believe so far (mind you they all would have earned money with it).

And just to give you some idea here. The quotes for the arch that I currently have are:
- 13,000€, fitted, 316L, polished
- 11,500€, fitted, 316L, polished
- 5,700€, self-fitting, 316L, polished
- 5,000€, self-fitting, 316, unclear if polished

I got a quote for 316L material only, 1000€, pickup.
If I use the 316 brushed ready parts, they would be about 600€ shipped.

I'll keep you posted when this progresses in January.
I had 316 unpolished on my old ketch as the 40x80 in 3mm wall thickness was only available unploished/brushed. Was not very happy with it, it worked and for my old 40ft longkeeler around the world tank that kinda fitted but knew I don’t keep that vessel long.
I would go for polished, that is good quality. The brushed can be of doubtful quality as use for not so structural stuff like hospital beds…my welders done that and exactly could show me quality differences.
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Old 14-12-2022, 12:48   #63
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I have two suggestions:

- if you use West System G/flex epoxy (available as ready to use thickened) to glue the joints, you don’t need to weld them anymore.

- I can recommend aluminum SpeedRail from Hollaender: https://www.hollaender.com/products/#
I have used their 1.25” IPS which is 1.67” outside diameter and the pioe is galvanized. The fittings are available unfinished and galvanized. I recommend to use galvanized. I bought unfinished fittings and will have them galvanized.
You must use the same epoxy here as well. I didn’t and a hurricane won against the set screws.
JB weld works well too, only original version…no JB Kwik weld.
But drilling a bolting through additionally to grub screws does the same plus you can dismantle and replace or adjust if you eg got different panels.

For monos or cat with soft Bimini that are also a solution:
https://www.geminiproducts.net/concave-rail-mounts/#
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Old 14-12-2022, 12:54   #64
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

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Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
JB weld works well too, only original version…no JB Kwik weld.
But drilling a bolting through additionally to grub screws does the same plus you can dismantle and replace or adjust if you eg got different panels.

For monos or cat with soft Bimini that are also a solution:
https://www.geminiproducts.net/concave-rail-mounts/#
The advantage of welding or gluing is that the arch becomes much more rigid.
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Old 18-12-2022, 21:07   #65
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

I've had great long lasting success with 3 coats of a 50/50 solution of linseed oil and turpentine (not mineral sprits paint thinner) as a rust control on mild steel. For 304 SS I use a phosphoric rust converter from hardware or auto parts stores.
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Old 19-12-2022, 00:50   #66
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

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Originally Posted by Disailor View Post
I've had great long lasting success with 3 coats of a 50/50 solution of linseed oil and turpentine (not mineral sprits paint thinner) as a rust control on mild steel. For 304 SS I use a phosphoric rust converter from hardware or auto parts stores.
Does the rust converter turn the 304 black as it would on rusty steel?

Here are a couple of brackets that I found useful:

https://www.britishpipeclamps.co.uk/...e-pipe-clamps/

The hydraulic pipe clamps (nylon) aren't stainless so had the tops chromed and painted the screw in bases.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/hydra.../4141470?tpr=1
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Old 20-12-2022, 02:41   #67
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefta View Post
Maybe you find this arch system interesting. You install it yourself without welding [...]
https://www.autocazantes.com/en-gb/energy-fix-eng/

Hi all!


After looking into this offer, I realized it is exactly the parts that I referred to. This are SS handrail building parts - look for example at the hinge used to fit the arch to the hull. It is brushed, not polished - I know why, because you cannot get this handrail part in polished.

Not sure where that leaves us. Obviously that someone has commercialized arches from handrail-parts means they last to an extend that they don't drown in warranty claims. Also obviously, buying these parts from a handrail parts supplier rather than a boat stuff supplier will save a ton of money - we all know that boating surcharge.


I also understand what many are saying re brushed vs. polished SS. Undoubtedly the brushed (or milled) looks a bit out of place. Also undoubtedly it will catch rust sooner, especially if its "only" 316 and not 316L or a duplex quality. (304 being no option at all, I feel)

My orignal question should really have read "does anyone have first hand experience if 316 milled/brushed is a liability in terms of corrosion or if the occasional wipe with a polish will keep rust at bay".
I believe that we got the answer from bccoast and captain rivet - ugly but functional with some extra care.


I am contacting workshops doing electropolishing. Perhaps I can throw the parts that are not available polished into their polishing bath, before assembly. That way I'd end up with a polished, modular, 316 arch without visible clamps and 4 options for assembly:
1. Grub screw - someone reported his arch came apart with these, not good

2. Through bolt - ugly, would be my last resort
3. Glue - definitely no harm, unsure how lastful with thermal expansion etc.
4. Weld - Gold standard, but means no DIY (for me)

Perhaps I can work out a combination - I glue or grub screw some parts so they are at the right angles and my welder can weld after. I'd suspect the glue would disturb his welding.

I'll keep you posted once the project continues in January. Merry Christmas everyone!
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Old 26-12-2022, 03:28   #68
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

[QUOTE=Pete7;3720162]Does the rust converter turn the 304 black as it would on rusty steel?

No but it does slightly diminish the high polish. Replaced the leading section of the pulpit 2 years ago & is still rust free.
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Old 26-12-2022, 05:00   #69
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

Re: pipe clamps. I had some odd sized pipe clamps I wanted. On a whim I asked Garhaurer, who made similar but not my size, if they could do specials. Yep, no additional cost or very minor. Been a long time.
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Old 26-12-2022, 07:32   #70
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

I installed an Atlantic Arch…… Arch in a Box on my Beneteau 423. Fabulous fit and performs great for solar as well as hoisting my dinghy. They are located in the USA…… possibly will ship; give it a shot to see the cost.
Good luck!
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Old 01-01-2023, 08:35   #71
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

1. Grub screw - someone reported his arch came apart with these, not good

2. Through bolt - ugly, would be my last resort
3. Glue - definitely no harm, unsure how lastful with thermal expansion etc.
4. Weld - Gold standard, but means no DIY (for me)

=> your solution is grub screw+ JB Weld. Thermal expansion on that 15mm you glue the tube into the rail part is negligible.
The grub screw holds it in place while curing. You can also first build all then dismantle and epoxy everything together.
Important is you stick in the tube, locate it in place with the grub screw. Then tap off with 1mm to the fitting. Dismantle, now take a rough standing paper 120 grid and sand the piece of the tube that gets glue and also the fitting inside. Creates a much better bonding. Then put some epoxy on the tube and fill half of fitting with it.
Now mount it together, adjust and fix with grub screws.
Immediately make the joints nice and take off masking tape and let it dry.

Like this it holds Minimum as good as welded. The glued surface is much bigger then welded, as the epoxy also gets into the tube which you cannot with welding. Did some test at the workshop with a hydraulic press, the 25mm 1,5mm tick tube bent but the jb weld glued fitting stayed in place.

I have to agree with Jedi it’s much more stable when glued then through bolted and less work too. Drilling holes in SS tubes is pita….
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Old 02-01-2023, 10:16   #72
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

Drilled and riveted with 1/4" SS rod works for me.
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Old 19-09-2023, 02:51   #73
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Re: Solar arch - thinking out of the box

Not wanting to unearth old threads, but I figured it'd be nice to report the conclusion of the solar arch project.


In short:

As our to do list became overwhelming, we had to go with one of the workshops regularly offering solar arches.
In our case it was a workshop called Edelstahl Haese in Berlin, Germany. (No association whatsoever.) They welded a proper stainless 1.4404 / 316L, electropolished arch, for an acceptable 6500€ given material cost and labor. It's sailed some 2500 nm from the baltic to the azores with us and is performing very well so far. I added a brushed stainless 304 antenna mount to it as a quick fix for something I wanted to try, and the 304 got some rust stains within 3 weeks of harbor time, but has not worsened since. So I believe with some loving cleaning once ever 2-4 weeks, a 304-brushed arch, would have been fine (if the extra work is accepable to you).



Long version:

I had been in touch with the workshop on and off. Finally met them on a trade show by coincidence. They were willing to allow us to do the measurements and mounting ourselves, which shaved considerable cost off the total price. We build a 1:1 model of the boats stern from carbdboard and took all measurements incl. angles to their instructions. I drove the carboard model some 3h across Germany to them and we discussed all the details. They created a drawing and I ammended it in some minor details for optics. They were good to work with, took time to listen, explained how they would do it, etc. The result is very sturdy and for the utility piece it is, rather good looking - let's perhaps call it the smallest offence on the eye possible. :-)
In the design we knowingly accepted that the arch would need additional diagonal stabilization due to the narrow placement of the feet. To achieve this, I used 4mm Dynemaa with tensioners and its working a charme, once the Dynemaa has stretched. Saves weight, easy to replace and can be removed if one has to transport bulky items under the arch. The stabilization is really only necessary in heavy seas.


My subjective view on "budget but good" self-assembly:
In the running up to the ready-made-shop version, I had spoken to another workshop who would have assembled the arch from pre-bent pipes, that can be purchased relatively easily online around the globe. Frequently, these parts are used to build handrails for staircases etc. Accordingly, a wide variety of parts is available, all sorts of bends, hinged mounts, etc.
With a bit of searching they can be found in 304 and 316 and in brushed or polished. Also consider that it will be easy and cheap to get brushed parts and throw them into an electro polishing bath somewhere. They are small, and hence dont require a big bath. Usually cost scales with size here.

Many of the "solar arch kits" that people suggested in this thread, are based on these handrail parts as well. By my calculations, the kits are about 3-5x the cost of sourcing the parts yourself. As an orientation, my material for self assembly in Germany in 316 brushed would have cost me around 1000€ in December 2022. Your mileage may varry.

I read of multiple assembly methods. The aforementioned kits rely on bolth-through or glue + bolth-through assembly. The workshop would have welded them together. I believe both is equivalent but the non-weld assembly allows modification, paid for by more cleaning effort with all the crevices and bolts. The grub screw only assembly seems to be inadequate, I personally wouldnt trust it.


I hope this is useful to someone in the same situation. Feel free to reach out if I can be of any help!
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