Soft Spots on the Deck

[btrayfors]

Dave:

If you have time, you might want to check with one or more of the owners of Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30's. There are lots of them:
BermudaOwners

Bill

[Apogee]

Thank you everyone for your well thought comments. I honestly appreciate them. You've given me what I need to know. Communities like this relect the true power of the internet. Thanks again! -Dave

[Moonchaser2304]

The inspector I hired before I bought my current '83 Catalina-30 was CRUCIAL in my decision...he and I got on our hands and knees and went over the entire boat, spending a lot of time tapping the deck listening for hollow spots...we found them to be limited to within a 3 foot radius of the mast, so we got an estimate from the local yard of $4,000 for the repairs. The inspector wrote that into his report and actually required repair for the boat to be seaworthy before I could insure it (I asked him to do that)...thus the previous owner was required to compensate in lower sales price or I would walk away from the deal. The owner lowered the price by that amount, I bought the boat, it went right to the yard for repair and all worked out very well...

The point being that the inspector was "working for me" to protect my interests...it provided great peace of mind in the deal. He told me it was a sound boat except for that one problem and well worth making the repairs.

Hiring a surveyor may help you make a wise your decision in the same manner, but I'd suggest you be present during the inspection, and hire someone that is willing to let you be part of his inspection.

[Joli]

Fixing wet core is not that big a deal. Teak decks are a big deal, they can be very expensive and hide lots of problems. Not to mention they are heavy and hot.

A friend had a large boat with teak decks, in the summer it took 7 AC's to cool the boat. Not good.

[Zach]

Just as a note: She's built with a wooden boats deck. Unlike fiberglass - core - fiberglass.

Have you thought about repairing the deck structure and going back with plywood and non-skid fiberglass? Not as pretty to look at, but functionally would put you way ahead of the game unless the teak can be reused. The teak was attached by screwing through the glass and into the plywood. Thats how the water made it in, and rotted out the plywood.

I crawled all through one a few years ago, the deck and cabin top are framed in places with flat iron, and angle iron. The deck beams are bolted by angle brackets to the hull, some were steel others were bronze. Plywood is attached, glassed and then planked with teak.

Here are two pictures without the skin on the cabin top, shows what is behind the liner.





These are the chain plates, and a little bit of the side deck.



Bow deck framing, etc.



My plan was to bed in each deck beam with epoxy to the hull, and replace the plywood with 1/2 marine grade, fiberglassing over the hull/deck joint. Remove/replace the toe rail... and end up with a deck structure similar to a Westsail 32.

[mike d.]

the simple fact is, that boat has been spruced up to try and get a quick sale. the finish as you said before i read it stinks a qick job to make it look presentable for sale. the boat has been let go cosmetically for a few years i'm guessing from the pics. the cabin sides need much work because whatevever they did will probally be stop gap and not done or had done properly. i would be very leary of that boat unless you don't mind work or spending a bunch of money!!!!!!! unfortunatly Choey Lees are noted for these issues if not kept up properly. checked a few out my self prior to my boat purchase. don't get me wrong they were designed properly and built fairly well the problem arises with lack of owner maintenance and or repairs. if that boat has salon window probs, the decks will need a nightmare. cheoy lee used plywood and other coring in their decks etc. depending on age. usually from what if read and heard is that the best remedy is to peel thedecks and recore the whole unless you know for certain the extent of the watwer damage.
gtood luck

[GordMay]

Typical of Asian-built boats, Cheoy Lee hulls are solidly constructed of fiberglass cloths and polyester resin, while decks and superstructures are a composite of fiberglass laminates and core materials. Just what is used for the core material seemed dependent on what was at hand at any given time. Consistency and quality control have never been the strong suit of many Asian builders, including Cheoy Lee.

Decks and superstructure are the most common sources of problems with Cheoy Lees. Decks are covered with a teak overlay, which is screwed to the sub deck, creating thousands of potential leaks. As these boat age, failed caulking and fasteners allow water to penetrate into the core of the sub deck, creating a potentially expensive repair. Leaks around cabin windows and deck hatches are common and, if left unattended, lead to considerable damage of interior furnishings and joiner work.

With the exception of osmotic blisters, which are fairly common, there are few problems with hull construction.

Another potential problem lies in Cheoy Lee's selection of (often low-quality) cast stainless steel for its underwater appendages and running gear. In an chloride-rich, oxygen-starved environment (i.e. salt water) pitting begins. Over time pitting has a tendency to penetrate deep into the part eventually leading to structural failure. Struts, centerboards and propellers that are over ten years old should be thoroughly examined for signs of failure.

For more information, try the Cheoy Lee Association website;
Cheoy Lee Sailboat Association

[JohnnyC]

Zach's post showed the deck construction of the Burmuda 30 beautifully. Whether the hull was teak or fiberglass (both were offered), the decks were built of teak planks over a timber frame.

If the decks were glassed over at some point things get more complicated.

The boat is based on the designs of the Herschoff 28. Not a bed pedigree.

If you like the boat don't necessarily write her off without a survey by someone who is familiar with wooden boat construction. You could end up with a very nice vessel.

If you are just looking for a deal on a boat in the 30 foot range this might not be the boat for you.

John

[Celestialsailor]

Cheoy Lees are notorious for this problem. I saw one in Moss landing that had leaky decks for years. I had sailed on this same boat years earlier. The decks were so heavy with water that it added weight above the center of effort and the boat was noticably more tender. I have cut decks on one of my prior boats to replace ply core. Its not a job for the faint of heart or a thin wallet.
The fact they did a so so varnish job in order to sell it, tells you want kind of person you are dealing with. There should be a humans society for boats. The price of this boat may look good now but the money you put into it will make you wonder why you just didn't get a boat that was in better shape for a few bucks more. There is a lott to be said for an all glass boat with little trim.

[little boat]

something else that may be a concern about these boats is:
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/...e-30-ketch.htm
"encapsulated ballast of iron, set in concrete, and glassed over."
i am not sure of exactly what this means. because the iron is 'set in concrete' it leads me to believe that it is chunks of iron, not one solid piece.
i once witnessed a gentleman's nightmare with his very pretty rob roy, where the cement ballast had become soaked through and crumbled. he had hauled the boat for almost 2 years to dry out, had drilled many holes in the keel, dug down from the interior, ventilated and heated by various methods, injected dessicants into the keel and finally decided the time was up... the keel was showing no improvement and he reglassed it.
if you are interested in buying a classic yacht there are many canidates. some of these yachts were constructed with the finest 'ingredients', some were not..
most all will require some refitting, and i am perhaps in the minority when i say that i believe many classics to be far safer with much better seakeeping qualities as well as undisputably more beautiful than most of thier modern day equivalents.

[dharvard]

I would love to hear from someone who has actually worked on his or her boat's deck soft spots. Who has mixed up some core-fix material (glass shavings, wood shavings, epoxly, etc?) and injected it into troubled areas. I ask this because the lovely 1973 Tartan 41 we are considering buying has this problem -- port and starboard -- near the companionway entrance.

Also: Does anyone have any recommendations / a source for wood or glass "blocks" onto which one could place/move mainsheet traveler to the coach roof. Mine is now in the cockpit --- on bridge deck seat in front of companionway entrance ---which hinders installation of dodger where I would like ...

Dixon in Michigan

[Celestialsailor]

dharvard..."Who has mixed up some core-fix material (glass shavings, wood shavings, epoxly"...No No No...Many people think that decks can be fixed this way. This would be the same as adding Marvel Mystery Oil to the crankcase of car that is blown up.

I did the decks on my 1966 Tartan Blackwatch 37. Here was the procedure...
1) Identify suspected areas by tapping with a hard palastic hammer and magic-marker the areas. Add a few inches all the way around this area to ensure you are getting everything.
2) Estimate the fiberglass skin thickness by drillin a 'few' 1/4" holes along the cutting line. Send the wifey of gf out for a case of beer.
3) Set your skillsaw (with carbide blade) to the skin depth plus an 1/8". Cut skin. and lift out(keep this...you are going to replace it). It should come up relatively easy but a few prybars/crowbars may come in useful. From here on in...have a friend help. At least you can both drink beer and look important.
4) Chisel out the old ply. This will be easier in some ares than others. The past layer skin of ply will probably be apart of the lower skin and will need to be ground away with a 4" grinder with a coarse flap wheel. Take it down to fresh F/G and be thorough. Drink at least 2 beers to wash down the F/G dust and relieve the itching.
5) If any exsisting ply is damp or wet, tent the area with a tarp and run a fan until it is dry. While waiting, drink more beer.
6) Use Smith&Company penetrating epoxy on exsisting ply ONLY. Do not use it on the F/G. No beer here as you are now higher than a kite from the penetrating epoxy.
7) Buy Marine ply ONLY. Don't get cheap on this part like the builder did. The thickness has to be equal to or less than the old ply. This is so when you sandwich it back together, it will not sit high. More on this later.
8) Grind the backside of the upper skin that you cut out. Now, Wash everthing with acetone. Again, no beer...the acetone is about to kick in!
9) Using battons made of hardwood about 1" square and upper skin width, place them width-wise across the upper F/G skin allowing only a 1/2" overhang on each side. Place them every 6"-12". Fasten them with a screw a 1/4" in from each edge only and griind any screw poking through. Then, with the 1/2" that hangs over each side, drill a 3/16" through hole. This set-up is to ensure that the old deck sits flush. I know this sounds complicated and you might be a little too high to comprehend this. Find a sober dock member (good luck) and have him explain it to you.
10) From inside the boat, it will be very obvious where you have cut out. On a sunny day it will be really obvious. Drill 1/8" holes in a grid of 4"s. I am basing this on my experience of a deck replacement area of 2' X 6'. The reason you do this from under is to ensure accesibility with a driver from under. At this point lay tarps below the holes. You will see why. Ok...time for another beer.
11) Make a pattern using 1/8" door skin for a template to transfer to the marine ply. We are trying to get it to fit as close as possible. Once the ply is cut, fit it into place and lay the old skin over top. Ensure that it is a little below flush. If its not, grind raised areas or the ply. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Wash all surfaces with Acetone. From this point on have lots of acetone and paper towels and garbage bags. You got it...no beer with acetone.
12) Using slow kick epoxy(2 hour pot life), coat all surfaces F/G and ply. Let them kick but do not wait more than a few hours afterwards to go on to the next step. Then mix epoxy with micro-ballons to make a paste like material. Coat with a v-trowel the lower deck and underside of marine ply. lay the ply in and begin screwing from 'down under'. Keep tightening the screws in sequence to push the goo around and out. Clean up your mess and call it a day. Call a cab, your not driving!
13) Next day, hopefully sober, fit the old skin and make up some more goo using micro ballons and trowel the upper portion of the ply and lower portion of the upper skin. Do not over do it on the goo. The clean up is a hassel. You may need to use a dead-blow mallet to push the goo out and around. Using screws long enough, fasten old skin down to exsisting deck. The battons ensure a flush fit...you hope! When the skin is down and you are happy with the fit, clean the wet epoxy out of the seam cut. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Call it a day or get more beer and watch the epoxy dry.
14) The next day, remove all screws, upper and lower. This can be a challenge with good epoxy. Using a 4" grinder wheel, grind out the seam, removing any epoxy. Using F/G rope and poly-ester resin, fill the seam and eventually fair it out...Now your deck area is finished...Still want to repair decks?

[SkiprJohn]

Whooo Boy, that sounds like fun! Let's find another old boat.

[Stevens 47]

Lots of opinions. These boats sell between 8K up to 26K depending on condition. A surveyor who knows how use a moisture meter (lots of em dont) would be a good thing. Make a list of its benefits and what you are gona spend getting it to 26K top price, does it make sense? and do you have the skill and a cheap place to work on it?

[GordMay]

Excellent description Celestialsailor!
Notwithstanding, as you so aptly describe soft deck repair, it might appear to be 6-8 beer job; but I’ve never done it (nor seen it done) in less than a case* each.
* A “case” is 24, in Canada