Skookum 47 Refit - San Francisco to Mexico

[Warby12]

Hey well done and thanks for taking the time to post this info, real life experience for us newbies

[SF Bay Dude]

Hoping everyone had a Happy New Year! The saga resumes in a month. I haven't seen my boat in over a year, which seems crazy, and is crazy. But that's how it had to be. A "bit" of work remains, but the biggest hurdle has already been met regarding the gelcoat. Next steps are:

1. Pull the mast and bring rigging back home to measure and replace
2. Pull lifelines and measure for new
3. Fair and paint all smooth surfaces on deck, cockpit, and coach house
4. Bring down batteries to fire up engine & test systems
5. Sand and repaint bowsprit
6. Service windlass and test

This time down won't be as labor intensive, but I feel like I need to be just as efficient with my time. I only have a few weeks this time, vs almost four. Last trip was literally, a grind. But hey, I did lose 18 pounds in 25 days. Could stand to do it again after the holidays.

Anyway, with these big rocks complete (and a ton of other stuff I won't mention here), my plan is to return in July of 2017 to get bottom paint on. I am still mulling Copper Coat, but not fully convinced. I had another idea to use paint for the hull and put CC on the rudder to see how it handles a couple years up here. If it does work, the savings of not hauling + re-paint will pay for itself after one haul out. I digress… re-step the mast, provision, fill tanks, million other things, and head around Cabo to points north.

Fingers crossed it all works out.

[SF Bay Dude]

The time has come to start planning for my trip south. Last year I didn't make it down until after the New Year, but 2017 will see me once more, this time in November. The list that I had hoped to accomplish last visit read as such:

1. Pull the mast and bring rigging back home to measure and replace
2. Pull lifelines and measure for new
3. Fair and paint all smooth surfaces on deck, cockpit, and coach house
4. Bring down batteries to fire up engine & test systems
5. Sand and repaint bowsprit
6. Service windlass and test

Time didn't allow for what was on the list because of 2 days of rain + I had to deal with a cap rail issue that turned into around a 10 day long project. What happened? Well, my genoa track is screwed in along the caprail; and it's a very large section: Amidships all the way back to the cockpit. Over time (of course) water found its way past the aging sealant. With the extreme temperature swings in Guaymas, expansion and contraction occurred and lifted the entire bond of the top flange of glass away from the solid wood that is the actual meat of the carpail. I was really worried at first about structural integrity, but after understanding how the boat was constructed and laid up, this flange - in a way - is somewhat superficial. It has no relation to the actual integrity of the hull/deck joint. That was done prior in construction, and then the carpail was stuck on top and glassed on, with the inner flange being glassed over, with the glass extended on the deck towards the coachhouse by about 8b inches, and that bond was still rock solid (if that makes sense to everyone…?)

So my solve was to remove the entire track on both sides, spend a lots of time pumping compressed air into the screw holes to expedite water evaporation, and then use my multi-tool to remove all the Bondo that previous owner had shoved in there. Once everything was removed and clean with compressed air, I used a combination of pipet and 5 inch putty knife to shove epoxy mixed with cab and 407 filler (mixed to a thick peanut butter consistency) into the seam. I was happy with each section when I saw the epoxy start to push through to the vertical screw holes. I then sanded for a nice radius and applied three layers of primer and one finish coat to protect it over the summer.

I was also scrambling like mad to do some more epoxy work, fairing, and sanding on the deck; which I accomplished. I also decided to remove pretty much everything from the deck, which my German friend - Wolf, or El Lobo - got a kick out of. He told me pretty soon I would dismantle the entire boat into a pile of parts. So all lifelines, dodger, winches, stanchions, cleats, etc, came off. I was ready to paint when we had a system move south and got rain (in the desert…who would have thought? lol) for 2 days. I had to return to California for work + family, so things had to wait for another day.

The mast didn't come down either, which was a blessing in disguise, as the yard moved my boat to a new location a few months ago. I wouldn't want anyone moving the mast without supervision. I did manage to turn over the engine manually. I wanted to see if the pistons would move freely. I encountered resistance, but once I got it moving, the flywheel turned freely. I will be bringing batteries down this time to actually fire her up. Again, fingers crossed. I was a little upset to learn that PO had left the engine completely dry of oil. I mean, there was a little bit in there, but not much. At least he had the good sense to drain all coolant and water, did a freshwater flush, and plug entrances and exits to prevent moisture from creeping in. I filled the entire case up with many gallons of oil, so it's having a nice spa treatment over this last year. Will drain and fill up with the good stuff before actual start up. Again, fingers crossed. Engine is Isuzu Pisces 60hp.

So as it stands, I have many gallons of un-opened hazardous paint and additives that I will be bringing back down, which is great, because they're all paid for! This trip will seem like a freebie on my wallet Plus the decks are 95% faired and ready for paint.

I am hoping that the carpail fix held. The tracks didn't go back on. I wanted to let things air out a bit, so I lightly filled almost all holes with silicone. I figure if there's pressure that needs to escape, the silicone will blow out before the epoxy. I also took care of my new TIP (Temporary Import Permit) which was pretty harmless. Always a lump in my throat dealing with bureaucracy.

This time visit I am definitely taking the mast down. I went back and forth on rigging. I looked hard at replacing with Dux, but the initial cost is too hard to justify. I am a 23 ton cruiser; not a racer. I'll take my rigging home and have it swaged. Will be replacing all running rigging as well. I've been looking into super low stretch stuff for the halyards, but again, can't really justify almost $4/ft vs $1 when Sta-Set goes on sale. But all this will happen at home when I return. When I'm down, deck paint will (universe willing) get finished, mast comes down, engine test, genoa track gets re-bedded and installed, and general test of other boat systems.

Sorry for the long post. I will try and get some photos up. It would be neat to take more images, but when you are in the middle of mixing epoxy and racing the clock, it just seems impossible to get done.

Finally, questions for those in the know:

1. Are there any recommendations on a nice water/oil separator for my compressed air. I was using one from Home Depot, and it seemed to do the job, but I am sure there is a better unit.

2. I was seeing pressure drop because I had too much hose - 100ft. I am going to buy a 50ft hose this time. Any recommedations?

3. I read there are also fittings that incur less pressure drop…?

Thanks in advance for any help and advice.

Dude Out.

[Zach]

Go for a 1/2 inch air hose, and get rid of any quick connections other than the last one.

I use a dynabrade two in one water separator, and one of the throw aways that thread on right on the gun. Drain the tank before you start and at at lunch.

If you are making a lot of water and have the room, you can run a black iron pipe condenser. The gist is, 3/4 to 1 inch iron pipe with a 2-3 foot hose whip off the compressor, A red-bush reducer in a pipe coupler pipe gives you a thread for a male nipple on the end of the pipe. Run 20-30 feet of pipe either inline or with elbows back onto its self. Set up a downward downward tilt away from the compressor with a T at the end with pipe going 2-3 feet up, and 2-3 feet down. Set your air hose connection at the top of the pipe, and a drain at the bottom. You open the drain into a bucket every few hours and much less water vapor makes it to the gun or water separator. Helps if the condenser is in the shade.


If you have rental air compressors anywhere near by, you can T two of them together and set the pressures so the stronger of the two runs to a higher pressure than the weaker. The weaker one boosts the CFM you have available if you almost have enough air off of one.

Failing that a pressure pot can make up the difference for putting material down with less than ideal compressors. It is bad enough trying to keep a wet edge with an undersize compressor without having to stop and wait for a tank to build pressure...

Cheers,

Zach

[SF Bay Dude]

Posted this as a separate thread, but thought I would include it here too:

I am heading down to Mexico in a few weeks, and looking forward to (finally!) wrapping up painting the deck. I figured I better run a test patch to make sure my equipment was operational, so went out and bought a 3'x5' super smooth piece of MDF. I laid down 5 coats on 545 and sanded smooth with 400 grit. Clean wipe down, etc… following all procedure. I am using a DevilBiss FLG4 gun with a 1.3 tip at about 20-25psi at the gun regulator.

I mixed my Awlcraft 2000 to the proper ratios and thinned about 20%. I followed the spec sheet instructions in regards to application. Here's the direct quote from the manufacturer:

Apply a light, smooth, slightly wet tack coat to the surface. Allow tack coat to “flash off” 15- 45 minutes. Allow the second coat to “flash off” 30-45 minutes until only slightly tacky before applying the third coat. Coats two and three are not “full, wet” coats. The second coat is a slightly heavy tack coat with the third coat just wet enough to obtain full hide (opacity) or color coverage. More than 3 coats may be required to achieve full hide (opacity) or color coverage.

Paint hasn't fully cured, so maybe it will lay down and stretch, but I dunno... The finish seemed very stippled to me and unacceptable for how much prep has gone into this. Again, this is due to me interpreting the instructions. What's does a "slightly wet tack coat" actually mean? I am thinking I need to lay down three full coats to get the proper finish. The paint seems to flash off super fast, and so I don't think sags are going to be an issue.(?)

Most of my deck is non skid, but I want the coach roof sides and other fine surfaces to shine and look like glass.

I would love to hear any tips and feedback from anyone else who's gone this route.

[Zach]

What kind of reducer are you using? Sometimes you need a blend of two to get it just right. T0003 is where to start.

Did you wipe down and use a tack rag? Dust on the surface can make orange peel.

Air cap with the horns vertical or horizontal? It can matter if you are getting a lot of orange peel, as you need to angle the gun so you don't shoot dry overspray onto bare primer. If you are shooting a horizontal fan while working left to right, half your fan is overspray. I cut a little piece of rag to tie around the vent nozzle on the cup on HVLP if you need to tilt substantially.

Think about the cloud you are working in... You want to start down wind and work to the upwind side, and have a fan that keeps a wet edge.

I stop at 320 grit with awlgrip, just because it will conceal the sanding scratches. A few local builders have had trouble going finer than that with adhesion issues... Dull sandpaper doesn't cut so much as burnish.

Sometimes orange peel can be from dust on the surface before the first coat.

If you shot the tack coat and it has texture to it, you have texture in the finished product. Think about trying to cover in 2 coats instead of 3. The deal with trying to cover texture from the first coat, is somewhere along the way you have to have a heavy enough coat to build up and bury the rest.

Most people, even pros without a wet-mil gauge have no idea how much material they are putting down in a shot. It takes a lot of material to fit the manufacturers recommendation for the wet film thickness at the end of the 3 shots. That means not getting runs has more to do with the reducer being used than anything else, as well as working an even fan, evenly, repeatedly over the area being shot while moving your feet.

Most folks don't lay a tack coat to speak of, but more of a lighter color coat. Much easier to learn with anything other than snow white, over white 545. You should still see your fan pattern and overlaps, without runs, but no "dark" spots. White on white you need angled light to see what you are doing, bright enough not to try and shoot shadow lines over and over.

The goal of the tack coat is a light coat that won't run, without trying to cover but enough material to cover. If you hold the gun far away, with fast of thinner you end up with texture as the solvent flashes off before the paint hits the surface and lays out. If you put down more material, with high pressure you'll actually move the product on the surface instead of just depositing it making waves...

With HVLP you can go down on the pressure, crank the regulator at the compressor up and the pressure at the gun down. Start out 12-15psi. Most guns the middle of the road on the needle is 3 turns out. You need enough air pressure to get a full fan, but no more.

Start out with a scrap panel and hold a 3 second shot and see the shape of your fan holding the gun still. It should just start to run when you let go of the trigger. You don't want any football shapes or more top than bottom... or bar-bell patterns thin in the middle. Balanced is good.

Adjust the air pressure until it widens out without spitting.

To an extent, with a cheap gun you almost have to shoot more material than you need and move quicker as the atomization fan and any spitting turns into nonskid. Sort of a "whatever it takes" type setting.

Hope this helps...

Zach

[minaret]

Originally Posted by SF Bay Dude

Posted this as a separate thread, but thought I would include it here too:

I am heading down to Mexico in a few weeks, and looking forward to (finally!) wrapping up painting the deck. I figured I better run a test patch to make sure my equipment was operational, so went out and bought a 3'x5' super smooth piece of MDF. I laid down 5 coats on 545 and sanded smooth with 400 grit. Clean wipe down, etc… following all procedure. I am using a DevilBiss FLG4 gun with a 1.3 tip at about 20-25psi at the gun regulator.

I mixed my Awlcraft 2000 to the proper ratios and thinned about 20%. I followed the spec sheet instructions in regards to application. Here's the direct quote from the manufacturer:



Paint hasn't fully cured, so maybe it will lay down and stretch, but I dunno... The finish seemed very stippled to me and unacceptable for how much prep has gone into this. Again, this is due to me interpreting the instructions. What's does a "slightly wet tack coat" actually mean? I am thinking I need to lay down three full coats to get the proper finish. The paint seems to flash off super fast, and so I don't think sags are going to be an issue.(?)

Most of my deck is non skid, but I want the coach roof sides and other fine surfaces to shine and look like glass.

I would love to hear any tips and feedback from anyone else who's gone this route.

Skip the tack coat and go directly to a full wet coat. 2-3 to cover. You are almost certainly spraying too dry if you are showing peel. The goal is to achieve "flow". To do this you must spray on a full wet coat, wet enough that it's about to hang. It must stay wet long enough to flow. If it's flashing instantly, either your reducer is too hot, your conditions are too hot/windy/direct sun, or you are spraying too light a coat, or some combination of the above.

Given your locale, I'd suggest spraying very early in the morning, immediately after dew has ceased to fall. This will be your best window for no wind and relatively low temps, followed by a day of cure time before dew falls again.

You can mix reducers too. Try adding some brushing reducer (slow reducer) to your spray reducer if it's hot out.

Just a few pointers. YMMV. Practice on a hatch or something you can do off the boat and sand out quickly when you screw it up till you get your technique, mix, and timing down for your ambient conditions. Don't learn on large shoots, that gets time consuming and expensive quick.

If all else fails, remember you can cut Awlcraft. Wet sand it with 1000-1200-1500 and polish it out and then you can brag about your peel free shooting skills to all the suckers. Better to spray an extra coat or two if you go this route, so you don't burn through when you cut it.


Probably would have been smart to bring back a hatch or two and practice in your garage before heading down. They say hindsight is 20/20...

[dsiddens]

Hey Dude,
Don't know about "glass" but here is a night pic of our Skookum 47, Drakus, with Awlcraft Oyster White. Cool white LED's on main spreaders, warm white on aft deck.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onf5hnr8uk...15643.jpg?dl=0

Doug

[SF Bay Dude]

Wow, thanks for all the in-depth replies. I know some will roll their eyes, but I used to paint houses for a couple years, and think I have a good handle on gun technique, pressure, flow, overlap, etc. I've finished out cabinets and been pretty proud of them. That said, this is a different beast.

I am all but certain I didn't lay enough paint down on my test panel. Again, I was interpreting the manufacturer's recommendation, but we were speaking different languages. About half way through on the second coat, I noticed the peel, and decided to lay down more material on half the panel to see if it affected any change. I still had peel from the 1st coat due to laying it up too thin, but successive full coats helped things vs the lighter side. I used T0003 with a dab of T0001 for reducers. Those reducers have me in a pickle. Should I just keep things easy and stay only with T0003? The reducer instructions say that T0001 can help with hotter environments and with flow, so I am bit confused on what to use past the standard reducer T0003.

I am using this gun - I think it's middle of the road. Definitely acceptable for what I am after. I didn't wipe with a tack rag on my test panel - I can see some bits from that, but I am not concerned with those right now. I just wanted to see how things flowed and leveled out. I have a mil gauge on the boat and will use it when I am tuning my gun before final shoot.

Also looked in to getting a viscosity cup to help me dial in the reducer(s) and flow, but that's out of my realm of understanding as far as which cup I need. The plastic ones on Amazon look worthless, and the few metal ones in #4 size (per Awlgrip) are $90, and looking at their spec sheets state minimum drain times (or whatever… I don't know what you call it) around 20 seconds, above the 14 seconds that Awlgrip recommends. I guess I will just experiment on what works when I get there.

When I get down south, temperatures will probably be in the mid to low 80's with very low humidity. Hopefully the wind isn't howling as it sometimes does (for days on end). Hopefully the fishing yard isn't sandblasting either! I will most likely have to do a polish anyway with all that dust floating in the desert air.

Again, thanks for the advice!

[SF Bay Dude]

Originally Posted by dsiddens

Hey Dude,
Don't know about "glass" but here is a night pic of our Skookum 47, Drakus, with Awlcraft Oyster White. Cool white LED's on main spreaders, warm white on aft deck.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onf5hnr8uk...15643.jpg?dl=0

Doug

Sweet Doug. Looking good. I'll be taking my stick down and replacing all the rigging as well. Will most likely install LED's for spreader lights to boot. Now if I can just remember how to sail...

[SF Bay Dude]

Originally Posted by minaret

Skip the tack coat and go directly to a full wet coat. 2-3 to cover. You are almost certainly spraying too dry if you are showing peel. The goal is to achieve "flow". To do this you must spray on a full wet coat, wet enough that it's about to hang. It must stay wet long enough to flow. If it's flashing instantly, either your reducer is too hot, your conditions are too hot/windy/direct sun, or you are spraying too light a coat, or some combination of the above.

Given your locale, I'd suggest spraying very early in the morning, immediately after dew has ceased to fall. This will be your best window for no wind and relatively low temps, followed by a day of cure time before dew falls again.

You can mix reducers too. Try adding some brushing reducer (slow reducer) to your spray reducer if it's hot out.

Just a few pointers. YMMV. Practice on a hatch or something you can do off the boat and sand out quickly when you screw it up till you get your technique, mix, and timing down for your ambient conditions. Don't learn on large shoots, that gets time consuming and expensive quick.

If all else fails, remember you can cut Awlcraft. Wet sand it with 1000-1200-1500 and polish it out and then you can brag about your peel free shooting skills to all the suckers. Better to spray an extra coat or two if you go this route, so you don't burn through when you cut it.


Probably would have been smart to bring back a hatch or two and practice in your garage before heading down. They say hindsight is 20/20...

Thanks for the tips Minaret. I was most certainly spraying too thin. I've sanded out my test panel and gotten rid of the orange peel - will shoot another test round on Wednesday. This time I will lay up a proper amount of paint and see what happens.

Question - if I need to sand 1000 through 1500, the final polish would be with a fine rubbing compound? I probably don't want to apply any sort of wax either after I am finished, so as to let the paint breathe and off-gas, no?

Also a general crazy man question: What would stop a person from laying down 5-6 coats of Awlcraft; Perfect coats with no orange peel, spread out over two days with a light sanding in-between day one and two? Each day you'd put down three coats. Then 7-10 years later as things start to fade, sand it out with 1000-1500 grit and polish? Would you not have a freshly polished protective surface ready to go another 7-10 years without having to paint?

To Zach:

With HVLP you can go down on the pressure, crank the regulator at the compressor up and the pressure at the gun down. Start out 12-15psi. Most guns the middle of the road on the needle is 3 turns out. You need enough air pressure to get a full fan, but no more.

From everything I've read, heard, and seen, people seem to set the gun in the 20-25 psi range. That's why I had mine around there, but after reading the Awlcraft specs per AkzoNobel, they say 10-15psi. I will try starting around 12-15psi and crank it up as needed.

Thanks everyone!

[SF Bay Dude]

Also, I'd probably use my 6 inch Bosch sander for the 1000, 1200, 1500 grit paper, if I need it at all. I am seeing some foam backed options and the regular disc with no pad. I would imagine the foam backed cushion would be nice for a mellow radius.

Also, does the fine grit go for a really long time? I've never used anything so fine before. Do I need 10 or 20 or 50 of each? There's not a whole lot of real estate that will be polished (if needed).

Thanks.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by SF Bay Dude

Thanks for the tips Minaret. I was most certainly spraying too thin. I've sanded out my test panel and gotten rid of the orange peel - will shoot another test round on Wednesday. This time I will lay up a proper amount of paint and see what happens.

Question - if I need to sand 1000 through 1500, the final polish would be with a fine rubbing compound? I probably don't want to apply any sort of wax either after I am finished, so as to let the paint breathe and off-gas, no?

Also a general crazy man question: What would stop a person from laying down 5-6 coats of Awlcraft; Perfect coats with no orange peel, spread out over two days with a light sanding in-between day one and two? Each day you'd put down three coats. Then 7-10 years later as things start to fade, sand it out with 1000-1500 grit and polish? Would you not have a freshly polished protective surface ready to go another 7-10 years without having to paint?

To Zach:


From everything I've read, heard, and seen, people seem to set the gun in the 20-25 psi range. That's why I had mine around there, but after reading the Awlcraft specs per AkzoNobel, they say 10-15psi. I will try starting around 12-15psi and crank it up as needed.

Thanks everyone!

Yo quit trying to spray Awlgrip products with HVLP equipment. It's conventional only if you want a decent finish. They don't like to just come out and say it, as this means it's illegal to spray Awlgrip in some very large markets.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by SF Bay Dude

Also, I'd probably use my 6 inch Bosch sander for the 1000, 1200, 1500 grit paper, if I need it at all. I am seeing some foam backed options and the regular disc with no pad. I would imagine the foam backed cushion would be nice for a mellow radius.

Also, does the fine grit go for a really long time? I've never used anything so fine before. Do I need 10 or 20 or 50 of each? There's not a whole lot of real estate that will be polished (if needed).

Thanks.

No DA, you'll just burn through. All by hand, wet. Do dry guide coat, 1000 wet on a soft foam block/hand pad till the guide coat is gone, then the 1200-1500 3M microfine sponges, then polish with Perfect It or similar (Farecla rules!), then glaze with Finesse It II or similar. Compound with yellow wool pad, glaze with foam. Just my 2c!

[minaret]

Conventional 2 qt pressure pot rig; pot pressure 12.5, specs call for 45 psi at the air cap; every pro painter I know runs wide open instead. This makes a huge amount of overspray, wastes lots of paint, probably totally illegal in Cali; provides a perfect peel free finish. EPA regs mean the makers cannot tell you to do it the way most pros do it. Unless you can fit your yacht in a spray booth, that is!